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[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, the quality—. We call them—it's not a very nice name—quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January—am I right, Claire?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Yes, January.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes—so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects—so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody—. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process—this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters' statements in front of me—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, will you be adding to those?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Adding is not necessarily—no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Siân, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'—it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that—. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process—. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years—I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again—you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We're assuming so.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were—. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger—and in some cases exclusive—focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual—spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other—. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral—didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question—the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just—? Before you go on to the next section—is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue—on this one and on relationships and sex education.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "Okay. And your response?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Siân, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum—that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system—how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "—actually implemented in September—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In 2022.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "In 2022, yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then—? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to—. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful—it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself—it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school—? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft—typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'—this is from classroom teachers— 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of—. Read the first bit again. Was it—[Interruption.] Accountability, yes.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers—understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "I don't—. I do not believe that any changes—and I would not pursue any changes that—would lead to a segregation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress has been made on bridging the gap between—? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been built.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Bridges have been—. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought—. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily—. The middle tier, which they don't have to the—. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned—. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if—. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout—not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When did that take place?", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Where?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "When.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "The weekend just gone.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Hefin David AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "This isn't about assessment.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods—? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think—again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually—the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset—with the exception of the extension of the one year—was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think—. Claire, do you want to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like—I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022—people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see—that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes—I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I just have a quick—?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did—I don't want to use the word 'assess'—to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if they—. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime—so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about £24 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in—and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this  professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools—the 16 innovation schools—and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but—. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16—four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out—", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice—'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically.", "speaker": "Claire Bennett" }, { "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary, primary—but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Siân has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools—? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually—not readiness to engage—start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving £30,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that £30,000 each, or £30,000 for the project?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets £30,000.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, you're right—we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message— and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train—that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, of course.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability—Suzy.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment—we refer to a formative and summative assessment—and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, well done.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be—. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document—is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent—I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive—inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how—? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line—the methodology—is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well—will those indicators change, do you think?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, categorisation—again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system—and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have—we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff—the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime—the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, because we will still—. We will still have inspections, won't we?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is—. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Go on, then.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, schools—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And available.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures—just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating—the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "And the schools' ability—whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well—will be judged by Estyn.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think—yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago—will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children’s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Children's rights, human rights—they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner’s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson—that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's—. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to—. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise—. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa—we've had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, so it's the timing.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, for me.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded—", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Siân thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this.", "speaker": "Steve Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you monitor it?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said—", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that—. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one—sorry, Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note—23 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

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Hello ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Test .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} switch it on again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We're gonna make a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think my laptop is a bit", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "etchy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes that one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Press F_ eleven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Folder ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Folder , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah I can see it now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Purple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Looks very nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just h", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Let me try one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's in format . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I first uh draw the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a worm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's a pig .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pig ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I can make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or a dog .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "a dog .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , not too quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's just to get used to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really got to write on that paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so that's not", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a donkey .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Half past .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Half past ten .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Brilliant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is definitely the best one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Piece of cake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Universal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Not just a T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we can try to make it special .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's right . Should be a good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nothing {gap} N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how big should it be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe more trendy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fold open ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "n", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah right right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you c", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's good , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There are buttons on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it would .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too fragile .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kid-proof .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ma maybe a home station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you never have to use any batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Rechargeable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you can change your batteries ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you can do something unique with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But n {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But maybe it's", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's what I meant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just think about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technical fun fu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's alright .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So see you in thirty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I will .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It didn't say that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Your fault .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ciao .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bye bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" } ]

[ { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello . Hello .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hello . Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I took your mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mouse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . There we are .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "My laptop is crashing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Cr", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Help help help .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Test .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} switch it on again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We're gonna make a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think my laptop is a bit", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "etchy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes that one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Press F_ eleven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Folder ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Folder , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah I can see it now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Purple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Looks very nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just h", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Let me try one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's in format . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I first uh draw the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a worm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's a pig .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pig ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I can make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or a dog .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "a dog .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , not too quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's just to get used to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really got to write on that paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so that's not", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a donkey .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Half past .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Half past ten .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Brilliant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is definitely the best one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Piece of cake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Universal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Not just a T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we can try to make it special .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's right . Should be a good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nothing {gap} N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how big should it be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe more trendy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fold open ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "n", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah right right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you c", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's good , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There are buttons on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it would .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too fragile .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kid-proof .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ma maybe a home station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you never have to use any batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Rechargeable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you can change your batteries ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you can do something unique with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But n {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But maybe it's", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's what I meant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just think about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technical fun fu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's alright .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So see you in thirty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I will .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It didn't say that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Your fault .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ciao .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bye bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" } ]

[ { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello . Hello .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hello . Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I took your mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mouse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . There we are .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "My laptop is crashing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Cr", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Help help help .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Test .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} switch it on again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We're gonna make a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think my laptop is a bit", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "etchy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes that one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Press F_ eleven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Folder ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Folder , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah I can see it now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Purple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Looks very nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just h", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Let me try one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's in format . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I first uh draw the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a worm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's a pig .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pig ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I can make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or a dog .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "a dog .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , not too quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's just to get used to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really got to write on that paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so that's not", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a donkey .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Half past .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Half past ten .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Brilliant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is definitely the best one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Piece of cake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Universal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Not just a T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we can try to make it special .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's right . Should be a good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nothing {gap} N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how big should it be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe more trendy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fold open ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "n", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah right right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you c", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's good , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There are buttons on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it would .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too fragile .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kid-proof .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ma maybe a home station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you never have to use any batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Rechargeable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you can change your batteries ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you can do something unique with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But n {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But maybe it's", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's what I meant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just think about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technical fun fu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's alright .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So see you in thirty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I will .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It didn't say that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Your fault .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ciao .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bye bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" } ]

[ { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello . Hello .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hello . Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I took your mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mouse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . There we are .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "My laptop is crashing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Cr", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Help help help .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Test .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} switch it on again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We're gonna make a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think my laptop is a bit", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "etchy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes that one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Press F_ eleven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Folder ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Folder , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah I can see it now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Purple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Looks very nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just h", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Let me try one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's in format . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I first uh draw the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a worm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's a pig .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pig ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I can make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or a dog .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "a dog .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , not too quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's just to get used to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really got to write on that paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so that's not", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a donkey .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Half past .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Half past ten .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Brilliant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is definitely the best one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Piece of cake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Universal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Not just a T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we can try to make it special .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's right . Should be a good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nothing {gap} N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how big should it be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe more trendy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fold open ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "n", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah right right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you c", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's good , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There are buttons on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it would .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too fragile .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kid-proof .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ma maybe a home station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you never have to use any batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Rechargeable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you can change your batteries ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you can do something unique with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But n {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But maybe it's", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's what I meant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just think about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technical fun fu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's alright .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So see you in thirty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I will .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It didn't say that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Your fault .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ciao .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bye bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" } ]

[ { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello . Hello .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hello . Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I took your mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mouse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . There we are .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "My laptop is crashing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Cr", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Help help help .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Test .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} switch it on again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We're gonna make a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think my laptop is a bit", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "etchy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes that one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Press F_ eleven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Folder ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Folder , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah I can see it now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Purple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Looks very nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just h", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Let me try one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's in format . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I first uh draw the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a worm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's a pig .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pig ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I can make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or a dog .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "a dog .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , not too quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's just to get used to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really got to write on that paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so that's not", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a donkey .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Half past .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Half past ten .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Brilliant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is definitely the best one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Piece of cake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Universal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Not just a T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we can try to make it special .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's right . Should be a good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nothing {gap} N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how big should it be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe more trendy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fold open ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "n", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah right right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you c", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's good , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There are buttons on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it would .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too fragile .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kid-proof .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ma maybe a home station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you never have to use any batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Rechargeable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you can change your batteries ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you can do something unique with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But n {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But maybe it's", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's what I meant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just think about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technical fun fu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's alright .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So see you in thirty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I will .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It didn't say that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Your fault .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ciao .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bye bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" } ]

[ { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello . Hello .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hello . Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I took your mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mouse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . There we are .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "My laptop is crashing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Cr", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Help help help .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Test .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} switch it on again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We're gonna make a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think my laptop is a bit", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "etchy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes that one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Press F_ eleven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Folder ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Folder , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah I can see it now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Purple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Looks very nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just h", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Let me try one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's in format . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I first uh draw the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a worm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's a pig .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pig ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I can make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or a dog .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "a dog .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , not too quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's just to get used to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really got to write on that paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so that's not", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a donkey .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Half past .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Half past ten .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Brilliant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is definitely the best one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Piece of cake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Universal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Not just a T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we can try to make it special .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's right . Should be a good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nothing {gap} N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how big should it be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe more trendy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fold open ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "n", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah right right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you c", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's good , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There are buttons on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it would .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too fragile .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kid-proof .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ma maybe a home station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you never have to use any batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Rechargeable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you can change your batteries ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you can do something unique with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But n {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But maybe it's", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's what I meant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just think about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technical fun fu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's alright .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So see you in thirty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I will .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It didn't say that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Your fault .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ciao .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bye bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" } ]

[ { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello . Hello .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hello . Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good morning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I took your mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mouse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . There we are .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "My laptop is crashing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Cr", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Help help help .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Test .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} switch it on again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We're gonna make a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think my laptop is a bit", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "etchy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes that one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Press F_ eleven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Folder ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Folder , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah I can see it now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Purple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Looks very nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just h", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Let me try one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's in format . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I first uh draw the water .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a worm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's a pig .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pig ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I can make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or a dog .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "a dog .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , not too quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's just to get used to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really got to write on that paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so that's not", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a donkey .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Half past .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Half past ten .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Brilliant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is definitely the best one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Piece of cake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Universal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Not just a T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we can try to make it special .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's right . Should be a good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nothing {gap} N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how big should it be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe more trendy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fold open ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "n", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah right right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you c", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's good , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There are buttons on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it would .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too fragile .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kid-proof .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ma maybe a home station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you never have to use any batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Rechargeable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you can change your batteries ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you can do something unique with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But n {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But maybe it's", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's what I meant .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just think about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technical fun fu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's alright .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So see you in thirty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I will .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It didn't say that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Your fault .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ciao .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bye bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" } ]

[ { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's looks strange .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One two three four five six", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That is weird .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This looks good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Don't know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What a deal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Great .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "One offs ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Definitely .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , you want to i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , e I just think ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We all had the same thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "this is the worst case scenario .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's difficult .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Grads and professors , fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , you age - ist !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Age - ist .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "another type of meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh - yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You actually don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Which one did you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can use found data .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Tape recorder .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} you can .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You need some microphone ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You can", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Not enough for others , right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \"", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . For some of it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Special ? Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're set up for it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I thought so too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Free lunch is good .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No crunchy food .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Should I pursue that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We need a wider sampling .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "\" Beep . \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , \" beep \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It 's a novelty item .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alth", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's interesting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "r Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "There we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Things have been weeded out .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's a good point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I will be here full - time next week .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK , see you .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No . Bye .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's alright .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Where did you copy it to ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Tape .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tape ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , on the tape .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I did an archive .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven hours ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So . And that takes a while .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Generating a clone ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Two copies .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "One offsite , one onsite .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! Hunh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow . Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Wonderful .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or maybe six .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or maybe six ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "SPINE .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , DC .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've seen it already .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Throughout the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \"", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Darn !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Duration .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , fans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Nonspeech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You need truth . Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One or two or more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which category do you put that in ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which catege which category ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Like a c", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . By the moment , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're not using all of the data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , be Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We 're just", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's the control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "With the fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , steady state .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {pause} my idea is", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You have your own ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unimodal ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , you can't analyse it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Decision tree .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Deltas ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "yeah . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Context window ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . S", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Clustering .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So p", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Features . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Features ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It will be enough .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've got a question .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . This", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "With {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "With what ? With what ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . Mixed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Are probably better , yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You have a question .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But it 's another source of information .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "right ? S Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . No . No , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "wherever they are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What looked different ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Correlation , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , his a web page .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Subtract them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's spread out .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , e I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Whatever you 're interested in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Very finely .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hundred .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And they had very precision .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That is cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ooo !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's on my web pages .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Network !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hats ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Shirts .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Catch some tea ? Um .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Are they new ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah - oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We could s", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "going and dealing with it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's the same thing you saw .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . ", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or \" your name \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Misleading .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Sure .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , really .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "They can't do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "y Yu - Ching .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that 's OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 'd be very efficient .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you do .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That would be hard .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you wanted to anonymize .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then , Jose responds .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy issue .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Making some decisions ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . For the public one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the ? ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh I see . I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah . Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mister White .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What did it sound like ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or do we just quit ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK , go off here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "huh ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , except ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I like your question intonation .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off .", "speaker": "Grad B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's looks strange .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One two three four five six", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That is weird .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This looks good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Don't know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What a deal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Great .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "One offs ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Definitely .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , you want to i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , e I just think ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We all had the same thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "this is the worst case scenario .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's difficult .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Grads and professors , fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , you age - ist !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Age - ist .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "another type of meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh - yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You actually don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Which one did you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can use found data .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Tape recorder .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} you can .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You need some microphone ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You can", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Not enough for others , right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \"", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . For some of it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Special ? Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're set up for it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I thought so too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Free lunch is good .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No crunchy food .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Should I pursue that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We need a wider sampling .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "\" Beep . \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , \" beep \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It 's a novelty item .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alth", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's interesting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "r Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "There we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Things have been weeded out .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's a good point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I will be here full - time next week .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK , see you .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No . Bye .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's alright .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Where did you copy it to ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Tape .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tape ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , on the tape .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I did an archive .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven hours ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So . And that takes a while .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Generating a clone ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Two copies .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "One offsite , one onsite .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! Hunh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow . Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Wonderful .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or maybe six .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or maybe six ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "SPINE .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , DC .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've seen it already .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Throughout the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \"", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Darn !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Duration .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , fans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Nonspeech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You need truth . Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One or two or more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which category do you put that in ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which catege which category ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Like a c", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . By the moment , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're not using all of the data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , be Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We 're just", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's the control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "With the fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , steady state .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {pause} my idea is", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You have your own ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unimodal ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , you can't analyse it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Decision tree .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Deltas ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "yeah . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Context window ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . S", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Clustering .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So p", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Features . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Features ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It will be enough .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've got a question .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . This", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "With {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "With what ? With what ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . Mixed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Are probably better , yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You have a question .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But it 's another source of information .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "right ? S Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . No . No , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "wherever they are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What looked different ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Correlation , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , his a web page .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Subtract them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's spread out .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , e I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Whatever you 're interested in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Very finely .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hundred .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And they had very precision .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That is cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ooo !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's on my web pages .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Network !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hats ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Shirts .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Catch some tea ? Um .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Are they new ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah - oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We could s", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "going and dealing with it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's the same thing you saw .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . ", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or \" your name \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Misleading .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Sure .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , really .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "They can't do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "y Yu - Ching .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that 's OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 'd be very efficient .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you do .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That would be hard .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you wanted to anonymize .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then , Jose responds .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy issue .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Making some decisions ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . For the public one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the ? ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh I see . I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah . Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mister White .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What did it sound like ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or do we just quit ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK , go off here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "huh ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , except ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I like your question intonation .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off .", "speaker": "Grad B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's looks strange .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One two three four five six", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That is weird .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This looks good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Don't know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What a deal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Great .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "One offs ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Definitely .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , you want to i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , e I just think ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We all had the same thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "this is the worst case scenario .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's difficult .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Grads and professors , fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , you age - ist !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Age - ist .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "another type of meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh - yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You actually don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Which one did you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can use found data .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Tape recorder .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} you can .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You need some microphone ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You can", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Not enough for others , right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \"", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . For some of it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Special ? Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're set up for it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I thought so too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Free lunch is good .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No crunchy food .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Should I pursue that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We need a wider sampling .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "\" Beep . \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , \" beep \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It 's a novelty item .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alth", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's interesting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "r Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "There we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Things have been weeded out .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's a good point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I will be here full - time next week .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK , see you .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No . Bye .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's alright .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Where did you copy it to ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Tape .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tape ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , on the tape .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I did an archive .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven hours ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So . And that takes a while .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Generating a clone ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Two copies .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "One offsite , one onsite .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! Hunh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow . Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Wonderful .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or maybe six .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or maybe six ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "SPINE .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , DC .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've seen it already .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Throughout the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \"", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Darn !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Duration .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , fans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Nonspeech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You need truth . Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One or two or more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which category do you put that in ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which catege which category ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Like a c", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . By the moment , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're not using all of the data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , be Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We 're just", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's the control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "With the fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , steady state .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {pause} my idea is", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You have your own ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unimodal ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , you can't analyse it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Decision tree .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Deltas ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "yeah . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Context window ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . S", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Clustering .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So p", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Features . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Features ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It will be enough .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've got a question .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . This", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "With {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "With what ? With what ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . Mixed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Are probably better , yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You have a question .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But it 's another source of information .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "right ? S Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . No . No , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "wherever they are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What looked different ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Correlation , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , his a web page .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Subtract them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's spread out .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , e I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Whatever you 're interested in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Very finely .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hundred .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And they had very precision .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That is cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ooo !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's on my web pages .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Network !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hats ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Shirts .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Catch some tea ? Um .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Are they new ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah - oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We could s", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "going and dealing with it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's the same thing you saw .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . ", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or \" your name \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Misleading .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Sure .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , really .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "They can't do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "y Yu - Ching .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that 's OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 'd be very efficient .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you do .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That would be hard .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you wanted to anonymize .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then , Jose responds .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy issue .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Making some decisions ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . For the public one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the ? ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh I see . I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah . Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mister White .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What did it sound like ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or do we just quit ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK , go off here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "huh ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , except ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I like your question intonation .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off .", "speaker": "Grad B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's looks strange .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One two three four five six", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That is weird .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This looks good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Don't know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What a deal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Great .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "One offs ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Definitely .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , you want to i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , e I just think ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We all had the same thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "this is the worst case scenario .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's difficult .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Grads and professors , fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , you age - ist !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Age - ist .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "another type of meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh - yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You actually don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Which one did you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can use found data .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Tape recorder .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} you can .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You need some microphone ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You can", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Not enough for others , right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \"", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . For some of it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Special ? Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're set up for it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I thought so too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Free lunch is good .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No crunchy food .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Should I pursue that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We need a wider sampling .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "\" Beep . \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , \" beep \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It 's a novelty item .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alth", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's interesting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "r Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "There we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Things have been weeded out .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's a good point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I will be here full - time next week .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK , see you .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No . Bye .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's alright .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Where did you copy it to ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Tape .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tape ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , on the tape .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I did an archive .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven hours ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So . And that takes a while .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Generating a clone ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Two copies .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "One offsite , one onsite .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! Hunh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow . Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Wonderful .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or maybe six .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or maybe six ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "SPINE .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , DC .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've seen it already .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Throughout the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \"", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Darn !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Duration .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , fans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Nonspeech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You need truth . Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One or two or more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which category do you put that in ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which catege which category ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Like a c", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . By the moment , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're not using all of the data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , be Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We 're just", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's the control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "With the fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , steady state .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {pause} my idea is", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You have your own ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unimodal ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , you can't analyse it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Decision tree .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Deltas ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "yeah . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Context window ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . S", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Clustering .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So p", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Features . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Features ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It will be enough .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've got a question .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . This", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "With {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "With what ? With what ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . Mixed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Are probably better , yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You have a question .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But it 's another source of information .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "right ? S Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . No . No , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "wherever they are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What looked different ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Correlation , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , his a web page .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Subtract them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's spread out .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , e I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Whatever you 're interested in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Very finely .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hundred .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And they had very precision .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That is cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ooo !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's on my web pages .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Network !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hats ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Shirts .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Catch some tea ? Um .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Are they new ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah - oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We could s", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "going and dealing with it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's the same thing you saw .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . ", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or \" your name \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Misleading .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Sure .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , really .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "They can't do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "y Yu - Ching .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that 's OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 'd be very efficient .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you do .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That would be hard .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you wanted to anonymize .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then , Jose responds .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy issue .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Making some decisions ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . For the public one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the ? ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh I see . I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah . Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mister White .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What did it sound like ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or do we just quit ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK , go off here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "huh ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , except ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I like your question intonation .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off .", "speaker": "Grad B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's looks strange .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One two three four five six", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That is weird .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This looks good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Don't know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What a deal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Great .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "One offs ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Definitely .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , you want to i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , e I just think ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We all had the same thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "this is the worst case scenario .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's difficult .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Grads and professors , fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , you age - ist !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Age - ist .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "another type of meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh - yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You actually don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Which one did you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can use found data .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Tape recorder .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} you can .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You need some microphone ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You can", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Not enough for others , right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \"", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . For some of it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Special ? Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're set up for it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I thought so too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Free lunch is good .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No crunchy food .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Should I pursue that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We need a wider sampling .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "\" Beep . \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , \" beep \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It 's a novelty item .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alth", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's interesting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "r Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "There we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Things have been weeded out .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's a good point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I will be here full - time next week .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK , see you .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No . Bye .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's alright .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Where did you copy it to ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Tape .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tape ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , on the tape .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I did an archive .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven hours ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So . And that takes a while .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Generating a clone ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Two copies .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "One offsite , one onsite .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! Hunh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow . Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Wonderful .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or maybe six .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or maybe six ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "SPINE .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , DC .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've seen it already .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Throughout the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \"", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Darn !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Duration .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , fans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Nonspeech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You need truth . Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One or two or more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which category do you put that in ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which catege which category ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Like a c", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . By the moment , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're not using all of the data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , be Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We 're just", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's the control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "With the fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , steady state .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {pause} my idea is", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You have your own ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unimodal ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , you can't analyse it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Decision tree .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Deltas ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "yeah . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Context window ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . S", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Clustering .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So p", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Features . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Features ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It will be enough .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've got a question .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . This", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "With {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "With what ? With what ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . Mixed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Are probably better , yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You have a question .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But it 's another source of information .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "right ? S Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . No . No , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "wherever they are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What looked different ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Correlation , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , his a web page .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Subtract them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's spread out .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , e I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Whatever you 're interested in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Very finely .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hundred .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And they had very precision .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That is cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ooo !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's on my web pages .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Network !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hats ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Shirts .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Catch some tea ? Um .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Are they new ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah - oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We could s", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "going and dealing with it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's the same thing you saw .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . ", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or \" your name \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Misleading .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Sure .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , really .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "They can't do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "y Yu - Ching .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that 's OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 'd be very efficient .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you do .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That would be hard .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you wanted to anonymize .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then , Jose responds .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy issue .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Making some decisions ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . For the public one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the ? ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh I see . I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah . Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mister White .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What did it sound like ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or do we just quit ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK , go off here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "huh ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , except ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I like your question intonation .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off .", "speaker": "Grad B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's looks strange .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One two three four five six", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That is weird .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This looks good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Don't know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What a deal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Great .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "One offs ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Definitely .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , you want to i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , e I just think ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We all had the same thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "this is the worst case scenario .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's difficult .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Grads and professors , fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , you age - ist !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Age - ist .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "another type of meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh - yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You actually don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Which one did you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can use found data .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Tape recorder .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} you can .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You need some microphone ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You can", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Not enough for others , right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \"", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . For some of it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Special ? Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're set up for it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I thought so too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Free lunch is good .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No crunchy food .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Should I pursue that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We need a wider sampling .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "\" Beep . \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , \" beep \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It 's a novelty item .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alth", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's interesting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "r Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "There we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Things have been weeded out .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's a good point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I will be here full - time next week .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK , see you .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No . Bye .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's alright .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Where did you copy it to ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Tape .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tape ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , on the tape .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I did an archive .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven hours ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So . And that takes a while .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Generating a clone ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Two copies .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "One offsite , one onsite .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! Hunh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow . Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Wonderful .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or maybe six .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or maybe six ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "SPINE .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , DC .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've seen it already .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Throughout the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \"", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Darn !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Duration .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , fans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Nonspeech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You need truth . Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One or two or more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which category do you put that in ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which catege which category ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Like a c", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . By the moment , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're not using all of the data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , be Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We 're just", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's the control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "With the fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , steady state .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {pause} my idea is", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You have your own ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unimodal ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , you can't analyse it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Decision tree .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Deltas ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "yeah . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Context window ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . S", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Clustering .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So p", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Features . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Features ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It will be enough .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've got a question .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . This", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "With {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "With what ? With what ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . Mixed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Are probably better , yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You have a question .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But it 's another source of information .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "right ? S Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . No . No , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "wherever they are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What looked different ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Correlation , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , his a web page .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Subtract them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's spread out .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , e I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Whatever you 're interested in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Very finely .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hundred .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And they had very precision .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That is cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ooo !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's on my web pages .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Network !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hats ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Shirts .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Catch some tea ? Um .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Are they new ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah - oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We could s", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "going and dealing with it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's the same thing you saw .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . ", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or \" your name \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Misleading .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Sure .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , really .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "They can't do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "y Yu - Ching .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that 's OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 'd be very efficient .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you do .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That would be hard .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you wanted to anonymize .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then , Jose responds .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy issue .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Making some decisions ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . For the public one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the ? ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh I see . I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah . Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mister White .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What did it sound like ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or do we just quit ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK , go off here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "huh ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , except ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I like your question intonation .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off .", "speaker": "Grad B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's looks strange .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One two three four five six", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That is weird .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This looks good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Don't know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What a deal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Great .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "One offs ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Definitely .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , you want to i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , e I just think ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We all had the same thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "this is the worst case scenario .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "It 's difficult .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Grads and professors , fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , you age - ist !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Age - ist .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "another type of meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh - yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You actually don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Which one did you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can use found data .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Tape recorder .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} you can .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You need some microphone ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You can", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Not enough for others , right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \"", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . For some of it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Special ? Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're set up for it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I thought so too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Free lunch is good .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No crunchy food .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Should I pursue that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We need a wider sampling .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "\" Beep . \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , \" beep \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It 's a novelty item .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alth", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's interesting .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "r Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "There we go .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Things have been weeded out .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's a good point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I will be here full - time next week .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK , see you .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No . Bye .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's alright .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "See you .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Where did you copy it to ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Tape .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Tape ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , on the tape .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I did an archive .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eleven hours ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So . And that takes a while .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Generating a clone ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Two copies .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "One offsite , one onsite .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! Hunh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow . Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Wonderful .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or maybe six .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or maybe six ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "SPINE .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , DC .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've seen it already .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Throughout the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \"", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wow !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Darn !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Duration .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , fans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Nonspeech .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You need truth . Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "One or two or more .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which category do you put that in ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which catege which category ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Like a c", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . By the moment , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're not using all of the data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , be Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "We 're just", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Pure silence .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's the control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "With the fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , steady state .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And {pause} my idea is", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You have your own ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unimodal ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right , you can't analyse it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Decision tree .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Deltas ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "yeah . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Context window ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . S", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Clustering .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So p", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Features . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Features ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It will be enough .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I 've got a question .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . This", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "With {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "With what ? With what ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right . Mixed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So it 's messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Are probably better , yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You have a question .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . Right . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But it 's another source of information .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "right ? S Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No . No . No , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "wherever they are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What looked different ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Correlation , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Uh , his a web page .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Subtract them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's spread out .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i i", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , e I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Whatever you 're interested in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Very finely .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hundred .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And they had very precision .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That is cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ooo !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's on my web pages .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Network !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah !", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hats ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Shirts .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Catch some tea ? Um .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Are they new ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's slightly different .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Ah - oh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We could s", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "going and dealing with it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 's the same thing you saw .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK . ", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or \" your name \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Shoot !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Misleading .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK . Sure .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "How do you mean ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , really .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "They can't do that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "y Yu - Ching .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that 's OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "That 'd be very efficient .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , you do .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "That would be hard .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "if you wanted to anonymize .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , it", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ugh !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \"", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And then , Jose responds .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And that violates our privacy issue .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Making some decisions ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah . For the public one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "the ? ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh I see . I see .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's good .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah . Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , good point .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Mister White .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What did it sound like ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Ah , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Or do we just quit ?", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "OK , go off here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \"", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "huh ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , except ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I like your question intonation .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one .", "speaker": "Postdoc E" }, { "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off .", "speaker": "Grad B" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} I just forgot their name , so uh you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you know them or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The names ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For for for my sur um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Jens .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , but your b your surname .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh Damman . D_ A_ W_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "W_O_ da . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh uh M_ M_ . I mean M_ . Double M_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And what's your name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Paul Wiezer . Paul Wiezer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A_ E_ Z_ zee zee", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh zee {gap} . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "E_ R_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's your name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh Martijn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but your surname . {vocalsound} Your surname .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Uh Abbing . A_ B_ B_ I_ N_ G_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I was a little short on time ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too , so that's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , same here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , I just fi first my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let's see . Which one was mine ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . {gap} Okay , perfect . So we have {disfmarker} Oh no , what's that ? So so we have uh forty minutes for this uh for this second meeting , and we have to make uh sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that we know what we're going to make uh th what the product is going to like {disfmarker} look like . Uh first I have the notes of the last meeting , so I showed uh show them to you . Oh , sorry about that , I just escape this one . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s uh presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh left .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And show , sorry . Okay , so let's have a look s at this one . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the um {disfmarker} Should be a univ uh universal remote control {disfmarker} No , that's {disfmarker} I uh s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . So have you changed that part ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so {disfmarker} yeah , it still has to be uh f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . It's it's still the same . Um {disfmarker} All these points uh we have to look at . You all know them . But uh there's another point . The um uh the main uh people of interest of this company are forty plus people . So they're old and not younger people . So we have to look at that as well . 'Specially old people , maybe bi bigger buttons or something , I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh so {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one first ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh it doesn't matter , just start with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functional requirements , yeah", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . Wait . Um I've used a marketing report on uh the site . Uh I think you've uh read it too . Uh and uh f and furthermore I uh surfed the o the other site .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You didn't read it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I didn't get it uh anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I didn don't thing we got it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's only for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay , I I was the only one who get it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay it was uh uh uh um um {vocalsound} a report about uh an experiment with uh a lot of users . And uh they had a lot of findings in their report uh with statistical uh uh uh thing uh with statistical uh proof . So I um I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of uh a lot of findings . So we can use this uh to uh create our own remote control . Uh seventy five percent of the users find uh most remote controls ugly . Yeah , I think uh uh that's a lot , so we have to make a beautiful remote control . Uh eighty percent of users would spend when uh a remote control will l uh look fancy . I think this fits uh at the {vocalsound} uh what what uh Michael said about uh older people . Older people will uh spend more money uh for uh something uh uh what's good . Because younger people are more critical uh about uh uh where they spend their money money at . Uh seventy five percent uh seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot . Well okay , that's uh normal . I think uh we we have to make uh good zap buttons . But that's one of our requirements .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The last point is quite an interesting {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um Martijn alr already said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh maybe our uh fold open system is is a good one , but {disfmarker} I don't think it's uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then you're you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That that's a good one . Um uh page two . Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room . That's exactly what we said about um maybe a home station for uh for it uh to uh recharge the batteries or something . Uh I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you {vocalsound} clap your hands it will beep or something . Uh you must find it uh quickly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . Maybe just a button on the home station . So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Yeah , we can uh combine that . Uh it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control . Uh I think we must t uh take a look at this . It's only uh th thirty four of the {vocalsound} thirty four percent . But it's uh a tough one . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c uh this is so difficult , uh a difficulty I think . Uh next , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't {disfmarker} We we haven't {disfmarker} Uh we mustn't look too much at uh the last point . Okay , last page .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the last uh experiment uh was about gadgets , like uh speech recognition . We didn't uh think about that already . And uh an L_C_D_ on the remote control . We already thought about that . Um uh they finally had a conclusion that younger people um uh under an age of f forty five are uh more interested in new features . And but they're more critical . And older people uh want to spend uh more money . {vocalsound} But uh they uh they don't want to uh have a lot of uh new features , because they're in their old uh thinking way . And they want to keep the old uh things the old things . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we have uh a new uh age of forty plus .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But y But you but you already said that the uh company was about uh forty plus uh clients ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think we can speak , uh we can skip speech recognition uh directly ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because it's not reachable for twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then {disfmarker} I have my personal uh preference . Okay , that's {vocalsound} not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . I had a question about . But it's already out of the question , this . Um my point is , well , I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If we ma uh make a a remote uh control for only television , I think it's hard to uh sell it for twenty five Euros . But it's the exercise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because it's too expensive . Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , only only for television uh {disfmarker} On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi mm we m must made it make it uh very special .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but good usability , so you can use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , I told about the home station . Uh it must be simple , because uh our the the elderly people uh needs to use it . And I I found a motto . And we put the fashion in electronics . And that's uh the motto we are uh referenced to uh for our uh our style . We we have to make a {vocalsound} a new product . We have to be um {disfmarker} Yeah . One of a kind , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it has to look uh uh uh unique ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unique .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The company is about our uh th th their own fashion , their own style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I reckon {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But old people are not looking for that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can uh make it a special product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to k to keep it simple when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh we also have to stand out ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry I thought about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . So make it just a different colour or different shape ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , this was uh my presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Paul , you can do the next one if you want .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can ask some questions or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah well {disfmarker} Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's on the on the uh net net uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Technical functions design . Okay , well , so we have s mm uh broad audience . Isn't {disfmarker} that isn't true anymore . But um we have elderly people , so we need to keep it simple . Uh the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen uh standard . So standardised uh methods like uh on all uh remote controls . Not too full , like uh Jens already said , only ten percent is being used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have it on the next page .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yes uh basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff . Um so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . Uh an icon on it or text on it , so it's very clear what that buttons does . So it doesn't take much time to figure out uh how to use it . Um a way to find out uh what people use is maybe just to use uh questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to find out . But there is already in a one done . Of functions I could think of . Uh volume , channels , the the basic according to {gap} . Just one two three etcetera . Uh text service options . Um basic on-off . And I found an uh {disfmarker} Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same um pages on text and always have to click the number .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . So you might as well remember the number . Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe i maybe it's too complicated ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but not sure {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a good idea , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker} It was just a thought . So I'm , I u {disfmarker} I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . But um how can you remember what uh channel uh connects to what favourite button ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what I was reading on the page . Uh a remote control just sends commands , basics commands to uh the television . So switch to channel six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh button six says says six . And if you make favourites , it can say six six six in a row . Just numbers . That can be in the in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . But uh uh for a user to to remember , if I press that button it goes to that channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you said a favourite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh mayb for me it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well i", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Never ? Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , neither do I .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh are you ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay now , m maybe not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If I don't do it , maybe old people {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , maybe elderly people uh . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They don't like new features . So maybe not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um well play , pause . I dunno if that's usable", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not , it's still not {disfmarker} It's not anymore n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "when {disfmarker} Not anymore for T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , on off . {vocalsound} I dunno , miss {disfmarker} Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just on the front as well . No , that's the only th the only thing you need .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh the p uh next and previous . Previous I know , but next channel ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just the channel um uh {disfmarker} What I mean is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't thi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forward .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Li like a web browser ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six seven eight or five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just very simple .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh um there's also a button to uh go to the channel you've been before . Like a web browser back button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have {disfmarker} Uh I did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think you use that . Y only when you want to go to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , just use uh when you wanna switch between channels all the time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how do you want to uh do it , like if you have a channel above ten ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Normally you can press one , zero or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think um f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A ten plus or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the ten plus button . Just uh one one pressing , or quickly after each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To just keep it simple and standard uh features .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to uh {disfmarker} Because you h have to be fast enough . Maybe the elderly people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah mayb", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It gets some seconds .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But I think that's in the T_V_ as well . That's how the uh the T_V_ T_V_ handles it . But you can have a button that says um two two st two stripes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's no it's not a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have uh like a five seconds period to press those two buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's th mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's what Paul says . It's not a remote control uh uh that um uh makes the T_V_ um do one two . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must uh type one or two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two uh stripes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that {disfmarker} And not for elderly people to look , one two uh press and aim and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's only for television now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I just thought of another one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Most things in modern T_V_s are also on the menu .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you also need a menu button . And then uh navigation uh {disfmarker} But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you have", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like um uh m maybe uh switch channels and uh volume and k that kind of things , and uh the menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "four arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because you n almost never use menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , a mute button . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know where where you have to put it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker} I think that's the layers that produce . Now I have to figure out what's uh what to put on . What we're gonna use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah . Yeah . That's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And later we can d uh do the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , uh now my personal preferences . Uh using the standards , basic {disfmarker} Um I think that we should stand out uh unique , being unique with the design . So we have to , I dunno , uh make a different shape than usual . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . Not just in in the row when you see all the same uh remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Does it have to be {disfmarker} Uh it has to be uh with different colours", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I dunno . Different colours um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can give it out in different colours . You can choose blue or yellow", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's like a iMac or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just to make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well why not ? Or {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's fa That's fancy . That's uh fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it looks cheap as well , because it's a small thing . It's only twenty five Euros . It looks very cheap if you make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you can look at uh mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , you just {disfmarker} I dunno what happened .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They they're uh designed very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And well basically are the same , just a bit smaller . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh well , I think that's a good example .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we hurry up a bit , because otherwise we won't make it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is it fin Are you finished ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I'm finished . I think we discussed everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , the working design . The method I used is uh search the web . Just the web page provided . Um {disfmarker} Basically I'm I'm not very technical uh uh educated , but uh I could figure it out . Um basically what happens is you press a button , uh then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , uh like a switch . And by closing that certain circuit , the chip knows uh what bu button is pressed . So like you press a one , that circuit is closed and uh {disfmarker} Then the chip produces a pattern . Like a Morse code to uh {disfmarker} And and sends that to the uh L_E_D_ . That's the uh light emitting diode , I think . Um and the light emitting diode is uh producing infrared light . That's un uh invisible to the human eye . And uh transmit that uh to the T_V_ . However it has also an uh a visible uh diode that's uh blinking red if you look in it . And that's uh another diode , I believe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because infrared is not visible . So that's er uh do two different things", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . I I think so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh j Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I'm not sure if it's the same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's usable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's active .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or just a green one ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because it's {disfmarker} If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think it's in the case that it's active . It's not uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , when you press it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's it's just uh the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Red's l shows up like something's wrong ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and green is like it's okay , you press the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe depends on uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ma on on most on most uh uh remote controls it's red .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we make it red .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we don't have to make it red . Maybe integrate it in the design as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to {disfmarker} The whole the whole uh remote control becomes uh green if you press the buttons . Uh that's cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I I think uh the batteries will be uh {vocalsound} a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Empty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe it's it is would an e No . Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , we have a recharger in it , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we can still make that then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it doesn't have to be red .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just to indicate something's on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . That it's working . That it's not not the batteries are low .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's cool if it was green .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's it's not very important ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Green or red or whatever , it is cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know . Just to indicate it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh the receptor in the T_V_ senses the pattern . So we have to understand what patterns are used to , you know , to make it universal . So that it can be used with all the T_V_s . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can uh o On the {disfmarker} Otherwise it won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to uh make buttons for that as well , to make it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I I uh {disfmarker} The chip um uh is producing the pattern . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An automatically search function for each television , or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That are working . Yeah , or {disfmarker} I dunno how it's uh exactly how it works . It wasn't explained there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I I use a universal uh remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I kno", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {gap} list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . And you have to put in a number , so it works on your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , I have a modern one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the modern one you you uh you type uh search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . And uh uh uh after uh a short time the television turns off . And then you know , oh it it's the right one . And you can stop it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's okay . So you don't have to search for your television or your code .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh search uh the pattern for itself .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so we use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it uh {disfmarker} We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . Because you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just say {disfmarker} Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking {disfmarker} There's just a short {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh okay . Well uh y you have this chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh when the circuit is closed , it produces the pattern .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh ma basically for uh brands of T_V_ these patterns are different . So like when you press a one on one T_V_ it go go to one . And on the other T_V_ it won't work , basically . So uh basically what you have to do is uh get these patterns right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh by d uh that can be done by uh just uh cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Changing the signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , uh is trying to switch off the television . And when it's uh switched off , you can push a button as uh it's working now , so {disfmarker} And then he saves that setting", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then um it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the right uh option .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well uh the components .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't {disfmarker} I w I was a little short on time . Um but I think I understand it . Um the energy source is uh the battery , basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um that's connecting to all the components .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because it has to be fed with energy . Okay . Uh the subcomponent is uh w I I think it is uh the button pressed . So basically when you press a button , a switch get closed . Um that's connecting to a chip . So the chip knows what button you pressed . And the chip sends out uh the pattern to the infrared bulb . I didn didn't put the description by this one . Th this is a normal bulb . So the normal flashing light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the LED , L_E_D_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and this is a LED too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But this one is producing infrared light", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's invisible . And this one is producing normal light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we can make the normal one also a normal light . Not a LED light , but as a normal one . To flash up your {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh if you if you use the buttons , uh both of them works . But one you can't see and one indicates that you use a button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , presu Yeah yeah yeah . Because uh when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can {disfmarker} Basically if the battery is low , it won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you have to uh put uh a small light around the button you push . So you see green if you push that button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh , that's a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm I think it's unnecessary power uh you use then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're uh sending a signal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , y Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And it's {disfmarker} you also know which button you p", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But then have to be on the in the all uh remote control have to be LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everywhere in the r", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I don't think so , but {disfmarker} Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That looks different , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our uh motto also is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is LEDs uh beneath the the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but mm like when you push it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah , then then won't {disfmarker} Then you won't see it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "n n Yeah . You have your finger over the button . So you can see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It must be around it then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or or m maybe on top of the {disfmarker} A green light is flashing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Not not not not here , but here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . There . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah , we're thinking about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you push {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh on a mobile phone , in the dark uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It lights up . Everything lights up . That's a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "everything lights up . Why ain't that on a remote control ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it only takes a l a little energy and it's not that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if uh a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's f Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea for old people as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's only few LEDs . Only four or something . Four LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I dunno . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's a good idea , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . We'll have enough power", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Everything agre", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Everyone agrees with that , or {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe what Paul said , uh under the {disfmarker} on the on the home station , uh a button to uh to call your uh remote control , that it beeps .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then you {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But you have to make a sound device in it then .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And also it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , there must be sound in it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , it shouldn't take much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . B maybe it's that that's a little too hard to make . Especially for that kind of money . Because it's i it has to be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm uh , twenty five Euros , I think we can make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Production cost is uh t uh twelve and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Bec Twelve and a half , okay . But but we only have to make it for television , and um we must have something special .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think uh you also have uh {vocalsound} remote controls with a lot of options .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But we lose about ninety percent of those options . So I think you can uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . We have to give our customers some extras .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think we will save money with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Are you almost finished or just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because I was short on time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No worry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Basically what we could do too is uh have a Bluetooth uh integration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I just want to talk some {disfmarker} about some more . So maybe you have to {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . Wh what's that ? So uh {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . We have some new uh project requirements . We have to have a look what they are . They're still in um {disfmarker} Uh teletext has become outdated since the popularity of internet . So a teletext option , maybe we have to skip that one . I'm not sure . I don't think so ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I I think a lot of people use uh teletext , still use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . It's only one button . So I don't think it is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We definitely should use it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh what I told you . The remote control should only be used for a television . So that's maybe easier . And um the the forty plus people , I already told you . Oh no , sorry . Oh , this is a problem . Oh sorry about that . The new product should reach a new market with customers are the younger than forty . So it should be flashy or just more interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , that's {disfmarker} It changes things .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm sorry about that . I just I just didn't read it well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So does it make some decision about that ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Changes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That kinda changes the whole situation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , then we have to make some nice features . I think uh the thing in the dark is a good way ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That still stays .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to make it more like a mobile phone . More modern .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's important I think and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "L_C_D_ doesn't work for uh twelve and a half Euros I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm ah {disfmarker} I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , I'm watching uh the channel one . Okay . {vocalsound} No , it's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah . What other features can we put in ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think you you have to make it a bit flashy and and popular . And uh then the usability is not that required , because the {disfmarker} Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh some of you had uh something to read about um {vocalsound} uh speech uh recognition . About you said one and the television turns on one . Is that reachable maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I didn't read {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very {disfmarker} That's fancy . That's cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's very fashion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I didn't read any", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Twelve and you've got twelve .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "b Yeah . Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Only the numbers , only numbers . Uh furthermore nothing . But only the numbers , one to twenty or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That should be cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to integrate that as well . If it's possible . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If it's possible ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's very expensive actually .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno . I didn't read it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Why should it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if i if i", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You only have a microphone in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I didn't have information about that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it has to work . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nah , maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah that's a problem , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And and uh w Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh only in English . Only in English I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} But uh I dunno how that works then . Uh does your uh {disfmarker} Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh one to have in channel one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that {disfmarker} Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do {vocalsound} do we do it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's more if we if we do it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno . So , is it very usable ? That's what I'm looking at .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and do you have to speak in in like in a thing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe maybe it's too hard to uh to realise that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} We have short time to to put it on the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so that {disfmarker} We have to do a lot of testing before we can do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Yeah well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so . {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We make uh make uh , we can make th th the new remote control very flashy . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In uh indeed uh the languages are a difficult thing . Uh because we we have a lot of languages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d Yeah . I don't think it's uh useful enough to take the effort to design something with uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech uh speech recognition , you can just throw the uh {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A uh someone says that uh give me one Coke , and the T_V_ turns uh to one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the remote away . Mm . Hmm . Mm . Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's not uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's the right command . And then you have to say uh T_V_ channel one , or something . Not just one ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Hmm yeah , T_V_ one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but th that becomes your f Uh uh because that's very hard for uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well I dunno . But I don't think , it just ain't useful enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we have to make some decisions . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , no speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "you can see on the uh {disfmarker} So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make uh a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , we just take that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what else , we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Also the one in the dark . So uh {disfmarker} It lights up when it's dark ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's {disfmarker} Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you push something , it it all lights up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it mustn't work all the time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's what I mean .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It uh uh it have to work only when you use it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or you can switch it on or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or maybe when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , if you use one button , it must turn uh on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . It lights up all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You have to {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right . That's what I said . It's the same as the telephone . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . D Yeah , alright . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do we use a a {disfmarker} Uh what's it called ? Like a iMac , {gap} if you can look through it . Or just a normal remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe just as an option , w like we discussed , like iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm , maybe it's a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , uh maybe use even different fonts .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Different colours . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so y you just make it th through {disfmarker} You look through it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A see-through . Mm , that's cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh as an option maybe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And so the buttons we have , this is , yeah , this is normal . We put in the the simple buttons on the top ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have {disfmarker} You had a lot of different buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we but we don't {disfmarker} We don't really have any complicated buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe you have you have to {disfmarker} Uh when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , but {disfmarker} Yeah , well w I think the buttons are very easy . With just uh standard buttons we just have so little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "O but maybe you can put um the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . Because you ne almost never use it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I don't need don't need {disfmarker} Uh teletext options are only four buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but younger people I think um more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I use teletext as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I use te teletext every day , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . For me too , it is . So we just keep it one level then ? Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , one level . And I think , uh 'cause um we don't have that many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the design is most important . You can d uh integrate the buttons in the design very much .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause {gap} simple buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you put one above it , it's clear .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it for toda for {disfmarker} We're going to have a lunch lunch break . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "How long is lunch break ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So yeah , you know what you have to do . This is uh this is it . You get your meal and everything , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Trendwatching . Okay . That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yo .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , we're finished for t for this time . We're going to have some lunch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} I just forgot their name , so uh you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you know them or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The names ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For for for my sur um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Jens .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , but your b your surname .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh Damman . D_ A_ W_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "W_O_ da . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh uh M_ M_ . I mean M_ . Double M_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And what's your name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Paul Wiezer . Paul Wiezer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A_ E_ Z_ zee zee", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh zee {gap} . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "E_ R_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's your name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh Martijn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but your surname . {vocalsound} Your surname .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Uh Abbing . A_ B_ B_ I_ N_ G_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I was a little short on time ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too , so that's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , same here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , I just fi first my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let's see . Which one was mine ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . {gap} Okay , perfect . So we have {disfmarker} Oh no , what's that ? So so we have uh forty minutes for this uh for this second meeting , and we have to make uh sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that we know what we're going to make uh th what the product is going to like {disfmarker} look like . Uh first I have the notes of the last meeting , so I showed uh show them to you . Oh , sorry about that , I just escape this one . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s uh presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh left .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And show , sorry . Okay , so let's have a look s at this one . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the um {disfmarker} Should be a univ uh universal remote control {disfmarker} No , that's {disfmarker} I uh s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . So have you changed that part ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so {disfmarker} yeah , it still has to be uh f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . It's it's still the same . Um {disfmarker} All these points uh we have to look at . You all know them . But uh there's another point . The um uh the main uh people of interest of this company are forty plus people . So they're old and not younger people . So we have to look at that as well . 'Specially old people , maybe bi bigger buttons or something , I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh so {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one first ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh it doesn't matter , just start with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functional requirements , yeah", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . Wait . Um I've used a marketing report on uh the site . Uh I think you've uh read it too . Uh and uh f and furthermore I uh surfed the o the other site .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You didn't read it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I didn't get it uh anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I didn don't thing we got it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's only for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay , I I was the only one who get it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay it was uh uh uh um um {vocalsound} a report about uh an experiment with uh a lot of users . And uh they had a lot of findings in their report uh with statistical uh uh uh thing uh with statistical uh proof . So I um I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of uh a lot of findings . So we can use this uh to uh create our own remote control . Uh seventy five percent of the users find uh most remote controls ugly . Yeah , I think uh uh that's a lot , so we have to make a beautiful remote control . Uh eighty percent of users would spend when uh a remote control will l uh look fancy . I think this fits uh at the {vocalsound} uh what what uh Michael said about uh older people . Older people will uh spend more money uh for uh something uh uh what's good . Because younger people are more critical uh about uh uh where they spend their money money at . Uh seventy five percent uh seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot . Well okay , that's uh normal . I think uh we we have to make uh good zap buttons . But that's one of our requirements .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The last point is quite an interesting {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um Martijn alr already said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh maybe our uh fold open system is is a good one , but {disfmarker} I don't think it's uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then you're you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That that's a good one . Um uh page two . Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room . That's exactly what we said about um maybe a home station for uh for it uh to uh recharge the batteries or something . Uh I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you {vocalsound} clap your hands it will beep or something . Uh you must find it uh quickly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . Maybe just a button on the home station . So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Yeah , we can uh combine that . Uh it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control . Uh I think we must t uh take a look at this . It's only uh th thirty four of the {vocalsound} thirty four percent . But it's uh a tough one . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c uh this is so difficult , uh a difficulty I think . Uh next , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't {disfmarker} We we haven't {disfmarker} Uh we mustn't look too much at uh the last point . Okay , last page .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the last uh experiment uh was about gadgets , like uh speech recognition . We didn't uh think about that already . And uh an L_C_D_ on the remote control . We already thought about that . Um uh they finally had a conclusion that younger people um uh under an age of f forty five are uh more interested in new features . And but they're more critical . And older people uh want to spend uh more money . {vocalsound} But uh they uh they don't want to uh have a lot of uh new features , because they're in their old uh thinking way . And they want to keep the old uh things the old things . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we have uh a new uh age of forty plus .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But y But you but you already said that the uh company was about uh forty plus uh clients ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think we can speak , uh we can skip speech recognition uh directly ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because it's not reachable for twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then {disfmarker} I have my personal uh preference . Okay , that's {vocalsound} not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . I had a question about . But it's already out of the question , this . Um my point is , well , I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If we ma uh make a a remote uh control for only television , I think it's hard to uh sell it for twenty five Euros . But it's the exercise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because it's too expensive . Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , only only for television uh {disfmarker} On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi mm we m must made it make it uh very special .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but good usability , so you can use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , I told about the home station . Uh it must be simple , because uh our the the elderly people uh needs to use it . And I I found a motto . And we put the fashion in electronics . And that's uh the motto we are uh referenced to uh for our uh our style . We we have to make a {vocalsound} a new product . We have to be um {disfmarker} Yeah . One of a kind , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it has to look uh uh uh unique ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unique .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The company is about our uh th th their own fashion , their own style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I reckon {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But old people are not looking for that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can uh make it a special product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to k to keep it simple when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh we also have to stand out ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry I thought about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . So make it just a different colour or different shape ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , this was uh my presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Paul , you can do the next one if you want .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can ask some questions or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah well {disfmarker} Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's on the on the uh net net uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Technical functions design . Okay , well , so we have s mm uh broad audience . Isn't {disfmarker} that isn't true anymore . But um we have elderly people , so we need to keep it simple . Uh the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen uh standard . So standardised uh methods like uh on all uh remote controls . Not too full , like uh Jens already said , only ten percent is being used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have it on the next page .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yes uh basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff . Um so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . Uh an icon on it or text on it , so it's very clear what that buttons does . So it doesn't take much time to figure out uh how to use it . Um a way to find out uh what people use is maybe just to use uh questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to find out . But there is already in a one done . Of functions I could think of . Uh volume , channels , the the basic according to {gap} . Just one two three etcetera . Uh text service options . Um basic on-off . And I found an uh {disfmarker} Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same um pages on text and always have to click the number .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . So you might as well remember the number . Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe i maybe it's too complicated ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but not sure {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a good idea , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker} It was just a thought . So I'm , I u {disfmarker} I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . But um how can you remember what uh channel uh connects to what favourite button ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what I was reading on the page . Uh a remote control just sends commands , basics commands to uh the television . So switch to channel six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh button six says says six . And if you make favourites , it can say six six six in a row . Just numbers . That can be in the in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . But uh uh for a user to to remember , if I press that button it goes to that channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you said a favourite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh mayb for me it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well i", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Never ? Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , neither do I .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh are you ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay now , m maybe not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If I don't do it , maybe old people {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , maybe elderly people uh . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They don't like new features . So maybe not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um well play , pause . I dunno if that's usable", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not , it's still not {disfmarker} It's not anymore n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "when {disfmarker} Not anymore for T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , on off . {vocalsound} I dunno , miss {disfmarker} Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just on the front as well . No , that's the only th the only thing you need .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh the p uh next and previous . Previous I know , but next channel ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just the channel um uh {disfmarker} What I mean is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't thi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forward .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Li like a web browser ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six seven eight or five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just very simple .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh um there's also a button to uh go to the channel you've been before . Like a web browser back button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have {disfmarker} Uh I did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think you use that . Y only when you want to go to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , just use uh when you wanna switch between channels all the time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how do you want to uh do it , like if you have a channel above ten ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Normally you can press one , zero or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think um f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A ten plus or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the ten plus button . Just uh one one pressing , or quickly after each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To just keep it simple and standard uh features .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to uh {disfmarker} Because you h have to be fast enough . Maybe the elderly people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah mayb", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It gets some seconds .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But I think that's in the T_V_ as well . That's how the uh the T_V_ T_V_ handles it . But you can have a button that says um two two st two stripes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's no it's not a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have uh like a five seconds period to press those two buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's th mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's what Paul says . It's not a remote control uh uh that um uh makes the T_V_ um do one two . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must uh type one or two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two uh stripes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that {disfmarker} And not for elderly people to look , one two uh press and aim and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's only for television now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I just thought of another one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Most things in modern T_V_s are also on the menu .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you also need a menu button . And then uh navigation uh {disfmarker} But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you have", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like um uh m maybe uh switch channels and uh volume and k that kind of things , and uh the menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "four arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because you n almost never use menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , a mute button . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know where where you have to put it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker} I think that's the layers that produce . Now I have to figure out what's uh what to put on . What we're gonna use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah . Yeah . That's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And later we can d uh do the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , uh now my personal preferences . Uh using the standards , basic {disfmarker} Um I think that we should stand out uh unique , being unique with the design . So we have to , I dunno , uh make a different shape than usual . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . Not just in in the row when you see all the same uh remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Does it have to be {disfmarker} Uh it has to be uh with different colours", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I dunno . Different colours um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can give it out in different colours . You can choose blue or yellow", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's like a iMac or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just to make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well why not ? Or {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's fa That's fancy . That's uh fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it looks cheap as well , because it's a small thing . It's only twenty five Euros . It looks very cheap if you make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you can look at uh mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , you just {disfmarker} I dunno what happened .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They they're uh designed very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And well basically are the same , just a bit smaller . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh well , I think that's a good example .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we hurry up a bit , because otherwise we won't make it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is it fin Are you finished ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I'm finished . I think we discussed everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , the working design . The method I used is uh search the web . Just the web page provided . Um {disfmarker} Basically I'm I'm not very technical uh uh educated , but uh I could figure it out . Um basically what happens is you press a button , uh then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , uh like a switch . And by closing that certain circuit , the chip knows uh what bu button is pressed . So like you press a one , that circuit is closed and uh {disfmarker} Then the chip produces a pattern . Like a Morse code to uh {disfmarker} And and sends that to the uh L_E_D_ . That's the uh light emitting diode , I think . Um and the light emitting diode is uh producing infrared light . That's un uh invisible to the human eye . And uh transmit that uh to the T_V_ . However it has also an uh a visible uh diode that's uh blinking red if you look in it . And that's uh another diode , I believe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because infrared is not visible . So that's er uh do two different things", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . I I think so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh j Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I'm not sure if it's the same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's usable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's active .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or just a green one ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because it's {disfmarker} If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think it's in the case that it's active . It's not uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , when you press it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's it's just uh the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Red's l shows up like something's wrong ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and green is like it's okay , you press the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe depends on uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ma on on most on most uh uh remote controls it's red .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we make it red .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we don't have to make it red . Maybe integrate it in the design as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to {disfmarker} The whole the whole uh remote control becomes uh green if you press the buttons . Uh that's cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I I think uh the batteries will be uh {vocalsound} a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Empty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe it's it is would an e No . Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , we have a recharger in it , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we can still make that then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it doesn't have to be red .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just to indicate something's on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . That it's working . That it's not not the batteries are low .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's cool if it was green .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's it's not very important ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Green or red or whatever , it is cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know . Just to indicate it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh the receptor in the T_V_ senses the pattern . So we have to understand what patterns are used to , you know , to make it universal . So that it can be used with all the T_V_s . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can uh o On the {disfmarker} Otherwise it won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to uh make buttons for that as well , to make it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I I uh {disfmarker} The chip um uh is producing the pattern . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An automatically search function for each television , or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That are working . Yeah , or {disfmarker} I dunno how it's uh exactly how it works . It wasn't explained there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I I use a universal uh remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I kno", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {gap} list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . And you have to put in a number , so it works on your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , I have a modern one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the modern one you you uh you type uh search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . And uh uh uh after uh a short time the television turns off . And then you know , oh it it's the right one . And you can stop it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's okay . So you don't have to search for your television or your code .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh search uh the pattern for itself .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so we use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it uh {disfmarker} We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . Because you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just say {disfmarker} Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking {disfmarker} There's just a short {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh okay . Well uh y you have this chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh when the circuit is closed , it produces the pattern .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh ma basically for uh brands of T_V_ these patterns are different . So like when you press a one on one T_V_ it go go to one . And on the other T_V_ it won't work , basically . So uh basically what you have to do is uh get these patterns right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh by d uh that can be done by uh just uh cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Changing the signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , uh is trying to switch off the television . And when it's uh switched off , you can push a button as uh it's working now , so {disfmarker} And then he saves that setting", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then um it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the right uh option .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well uh the components .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't {disfmarker} I w I was a little short on time . Um but I think I understand it . Um the energy source is uh the battery , basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um that's connecting to all the components .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because it has to be fed with energy . Okay . Uh the subcomponent is uh w I I think it is uh the button pressed . So basically when you press a button , a switch get closed . Um that's connecting to a chip . So the chip knows what button you pressed . And the chip sends out uh the pattern to the infrared bulb . I didn didn't put the description by this one . Th this is a normal bulb . So the normal flashing light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the LED , L_E_D_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and this is a LED too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But this one is producing infrared light", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's invisible . And this one is producing normal light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we can make the normal one also a normal light . Not a LED light , but as a normal one . To flash up your {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh if you if you use the buttons , uh both of them works . But one you can't see and one indicates that you use a button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , presu Yeah yeah yeah . Because uh when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can {disfmarker} Basically if the battery is low , it won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you have to uh put uh a small light around the button you push . So you see green if you push that button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh , that's a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm I think it's unnecessary power uh you use then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're uh sending a signal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , y Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And it's {disfmarker} you also know which button you p", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But then have to be on the in the all uh remote control have to be LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everywhere in the r", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I don't think so , but {disfmarker} Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That looks different , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our uh motto also is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is LEDs uh beneath the the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but mm like when you push it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah , then then won't {disfmarker} Then you won't see it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "n n Yeah . You have your finger over the button . So you can see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It must be around it then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or or m maybe on top of the {disfmarker} A green light is flashing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Not not not not here , but here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . There . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah , we're thinking about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you push {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh on a mobile phone , in the dark uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It lights up . Everything lights up . That's a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "everything lights up . Why ain't that on a remote control ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it only takes a l a little energy and it's not that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if uh a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's f Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea for old people as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's only few LEDs . Only four or something . Four LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I dunno . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's a good idea , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . We'll have enough power", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Everything agre", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Everyone agrees with that , or {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe what Paul said , uh under the {disfmarker} on the on the home station , uh a button to uh to call your uh remote control , that it beeps .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then you {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But you have to make a sound device in it then .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And also it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , there must be sound in it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , it shouldn't take much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . B maybe it's that that's a little too hard to make . Especially for that kind of money . Because it's i it has to be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm uh , twenty five Euros , I think we can make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Production cost is uh t uh twelve and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Bec Twelve and a half , okay . But but we only have to make it for television , and um we must have something special .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think uh you also have uh {vocalsound} remote controls with a lot of options .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But we lose about ninety percent of those options . So I think you can uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . We have to give our customers some extras .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think we will save money with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Are you almost finished or just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because I was short on time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No worry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Basically what we could do too is uh have a Bluetooth uh integration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I just want to talk some {disfmarker} about some more . So maybe you have to {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . Wh what's that ? So uh {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . We have some new uh project requirements . We have to have a look what they are . They're still in um {disfmarker} Uh teletext has become outdated since the popularity of internet . So a teletext option , maybe we have to skip that one . I'm not sure . I don't think so ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I I think a lot of people use uh teletext , still use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . It's only one button . So I don't think it is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We definitely should use it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh what I told you . The remote control should only be used for a television . So that's maybe easier . And um the the forty plus people , I already told you . Oh no , sorry . Oh , this is a problem . Oh sorry about that . The new product should reach a new market with customers are the younger than forty . So it should be flashy or just more interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , that's {disfmarker} It changes things .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm sorry about that . I just I just didn't read it well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So does it make some decision about that ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Changes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That kinda changes the whole situation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , then we have to make some nice features . I think uh the thing in the dark is a good way ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That still stays .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to make it more like a mobile phone . More modern .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's important I think and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "L_C_D_ doesn't work for uh twelve and a half Euros I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm ah {disfmarker} I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , I'm watching uh the channel one . Okay . {vocalsound} No , it's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah . What other features can we put in ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think you you have to make it a bit flashy and and popular . And uh then the usability is not that required , because the {disfmarker} Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh some of you had uh something to read about um {vocalsound} uh speech uh recognition . About you said one and the television turns on one . Is that reachable maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I didn't read {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very {disfmarker} That's fancy . That's cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's very fashion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I didn't read any", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Twelve and you've got twelve .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "b Yeah . Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Only the numbers , only numbers . Uh furthermore nothing . But only the numbers , one to twenty or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That should be cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to integrate that as well . If it's possible . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If it's possible ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's very expensive actually .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno . I didn't read it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Why should it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if i if i", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You only have a microphone in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I didn't have information about that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it has to work . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nah , maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah that's a problem , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And and uh w Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh only in English . Only in English I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} But uh I dunno how that works then . Uh does your uh {disfmarker} Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh one to have in channel one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that {disfmarker} Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do {vocalsound} do we do it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's more if we if we do it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno . So , is it very usable ? That's what I'm looking at .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and do you have to speak in in like in a thing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe maybe it's too hard to uh to realise that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} We have short time to to put it on the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so that {disfmarker} We have to do a lot of testing before we can do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Yeah well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so . {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We make uh make uh , we can make th th the new remote control very flashy . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In uh indeed uh the languages are a difficult thing . Uh because we we have a lot of languages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d Yeah . I don't think it's uh useful enough to take the effort to design something with uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech uh speech recognition , you can just throw the uh {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A uh someone says that uh give me one Coke , and the T_V_ turns uh to one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the remote away . Mm . Hmm . Mm . Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's not uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's the right command . And then you have to say uh T_V_ channel one , or something . Not just one ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Hmm yeah , T_V_ one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but th that becomes your f Uh uh because that's very hard for uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well I dunno . But I don't think , it just ain't useful enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we have to make some decisions . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , no speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "you can see on the uh {disfmarker} So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make uh a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , we just take that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what else , we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Also the one in the dark . So uh {disfmarker} It lights up when it's dark ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's {disfmarker} Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you push something , it it all lights up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it mustn't work all the time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's what I mean .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It uh uh it have to work only when you use it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or you can switch it on or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or maybe when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , if you use one button , it must turn uh on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . It lights up all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You have to {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right . That's what I said . It's the same as the telephone . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . D Yeah , alright . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do we use a a {disfmarker} Uh what's it called ? Like a iMac , {gap} if you can look through it . Or just a normal remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe just as an option , w like we discussed , like iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm , maybe it's a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , uh maybe use even different fonts .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Different colours . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so y you just make it th through {disfmarker} You look through it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A see-through . Mm , that's cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh as an option maybe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And so the buttons we have , this is , yeah , this is normal . We put in the the simple buttons on the top ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have {disfmarker} You had a lot of different buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we but we don't {disfmarker} We don't really have any complicated buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe you have you have to {disfmarker} Uh when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , but {disfmarker} Yeah , well w I think the buttons are very easy . With just uh standard buttons we just have so little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "O but maybe you can put um the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . Because you ne almost never use it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I don't need don't need {disfmarker} Uh teletext options are only four buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but younger people I think um more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I use teletext as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I use te teletext every day , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . For me too , it is . So we just keep it one level then ? Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , one level . And I think , uh 'cause um we don't have that many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the design is most important . You can d uh integrate the buttons in the design very much .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause {gap} simple buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you put one above it , it's clear .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it for toda for {disfmarker} We're going to have a lunch lunch break . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "How long is lunch break ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So yeah , you know what you have to do . This is uh this is it . You get your meal and everything , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Trendwatching . Okay . That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yo .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , we're finished for t for this time . We're going to have some lunch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} I just forgot their name , so uh you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you know them or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The names ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For for for my sur um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Jens .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , but your b your surname .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh Damman . D_ A_ W_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "W_O_ da . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh uh M_ M_ . I mean M_ . Double M_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And what's your name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Paul Wiezer . Paul Wiezer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A_ E_ Z_ zee zee", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh zee {gap} . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "E_ R_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's your name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh Martijn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but your surname . {vocalsound} Your surname .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Uh Abbing . A_ B_ B_ I_ N_ G_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I was a little short on time ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too , so that's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , same here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , I just fi first my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let's see . Which one was mine ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . {gap} Okay , perfect . So we have {disfmarker} Oh no , what's that ? So so we have uh forty minutes for this uh for this second meeting , and we have to make uh sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that we know what we're going to make uh th what the product is going to like {disfmarker} look like . Uh first I have the notes of the last meeting , so I showed uh show them to you . Oh , sorry about that , I just escape this one . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s uh presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh left .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And show , sorry . Okay , so let's have a look s at this one . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the um {disfmarker} Should be a univ uh universal remote control {disfmarker} No , that's {disfmarker} I uh s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . So have you changed that part ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so {disfmarker} yeah , it still has to be uh f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . It's it's still the same . Um {disfmarker} All these points uh we have to look at . You all know them . But uh there's another point . The um uh the main uh people of interest of this company are forty plus people . So they're old and not younger people . So we have to look at that as well . 'Specially old people , maybe bi bigger buttons or something , I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh so {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one first ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh it doesn't matter , just start with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functional requirements , yeah", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . Wait . Um I've used a marketing report on uh the site . Uh I think you've uh read it too . Uh and uh f and furthermore I uh surfed the o the other site .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You didn't read it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I didn't get it uh anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I didn don't thing we got it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's only for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay , I I was the only one who get it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay it was uh uh uh um um {vocalsound} a report about uh an experiment with uh a lot of users . And uh they had a lot of findings in their report uh with statistical uh uh uh thing uh with statistical uh proof . So I um I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of uh a lot of findings . So we can use this uh to uh create our own remote control . Uh seventy five percent of the users find uh most remote controls ugly . Yeah , I think uh uh that's a lot , so we have to make a beautiful remote control . Uh eighty percent of users would spend when uh a remote control will l uh look fancy . I think this fits uh at the {vocalsound} uh what what uh Michael said about uh older people . Older people will uh spend more money uh for uh something uh uh what's good . Because younger people are more critical uh about uh uh where they spend their money money at . Uh seventy five percent uh seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot . Well okay , that's uh normal . I think uh we we have to make uh good zap buttons . But that's one of our requirements .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The last point is quite an interesting {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um Martijn alr already said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh maybe our uh fold open system is is a good one , but {disfmarker} I don't think it's uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then you're you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That that's a good one . Um uh page two . Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room . That's exactly what we said about um maybe a home station for uh for it uh to uh recharge the batteries or something . Uh I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you {vocalsound} clap your hands it will beep or something . Uh you must find it uh quickly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . Maybe just a button on the home station . So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Yeah , we can uh combine that . Uh it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control . Uh I think we must t uh take a look at this . It's only uh th thirty four of the {vocalsound} thirty four percent . But it's uh a tough one . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c uh this is so difficult , uh a difficulty I think . Uh next , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't {disfmarker} We we haven't {disfmarker} Uh we mustn't look too much at uh the last point . Okay , last page .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the last uh experiment uh was about gadgets , like uh speech recognition . We didn't uh think about that already . And uh an L_C_D_ on the remote control . We already thought about that . Um uh they finally had a conclusion that younger people um uh under an age of f forty five are uh more interested in new features . And but they're more critical . And older people uh want to spend uh more money . {vocalsound} But uh they uh they don't want to uh have a lot of uh new features , because they're in their old uh thinking way . And they want to keep the old uh things the old things . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we have uh a new uh age of forty plus .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But y But you but you already said that the uh company was about uh forty plus uh clients ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think we can speak , uh we can skip speech recognition uh directly ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because it's not reachable for twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then {disfmarker} I have my personal uh preference . Okay , that's {vocalsound} not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . I had a question about . But it's already out of the question , this . Um my point is , well , I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If we ma uh make a a remote uh control for only television , I think it's hard to uh sell it for twenty five Euros . But it's the exercise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because it's too expensive . Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , only only for television uh {disfmarker} On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi mm we m must made it make it uh very special .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but good usability , so you can use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , I told about the home station . Uh it must be simple , because uh our the the elderly people uh needs to use it . And I I found a motto . And we put the fashion in electronics . And that's uh the motto we are uh referenced to uh for our uh our style . We we have to make a {vocalsound} a new product . We have to be um {disfmarker} Yeah . One of a kind , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it has to look uh uh uh unique ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unique .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The company is about our uh th th their own fashion , their own style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I reckon {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But old people are not looking for that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can uh make it a special product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to k to keep it simple when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh we also have to stand out ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry I thought about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . So make it just a different colour or different shape ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , this was uh my presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Paul , you can do the next one if you want .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can ask some questions or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah well {disfmarker} Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's on the on the uh net net uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Technical functions design . Okay , well , so we have s mm uh broad audience . Isn't {disfmarker} that isn't true anymore . But um we have elderly people , so we need to keep it simple . Uh the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen uh standard . So standardised uh methods like uh on all uh remote controls . Not too full , like uh Jens already said , only ten percent is being used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have it on the next page .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yes uh basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff . Um so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . Uh an icon on it or text on it , so it's very clear what that buttons does . So it doesn't take much time to figure out uh how to use it . Um a way to find out uh what people use is maybe just to use uh questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to find out . But there is already in a one done . Of functions I could think of . Uh volume , channels , the the basic according to {gap} . Just one two three etcetera . Uh text service options . Um basic on-off . And I found an uh {disfmarker} Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same um pages on text and always have to click the number .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . So you might as well remember the number . Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe i maybe it's too complicated ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but not sure {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a good idea , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker} It was just a thought . So I'm , I u {disfmarker} I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . But um how can you remember what uh channel uh connects to what favourite button ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what I was reading on the page . Uh a remote control just sends commands , basics commands to uh the television . So switch to channel six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh button six says says six . And if you make favourites , it can say six six six in a row . Just numbers . That can be in the in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . But uh uh for a user to to remember , if I press that button it goes to that channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you said a favourite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh mayb for me it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well i", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Never ? Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , neither do I .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh are you ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay now , m maybe not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If I don't do it , maybe old people {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , maybe elderly people uh . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They don't like new features . So maybe not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um well play , pause . I dunno if that's usable", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not , it's still not {disfmarker} It's not anymore n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "when {disfmarker} Not anymore for T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , on off . {vocalsound} I dunno , miss {disfmarker} Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just on the front as well . No , that's the only th the only thing you need .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh the p uh next and previous . Previous I know , but next channel ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just the channel um uh {disfmarker} What I mean is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't thi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forward .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Li like a web browser ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six seven eight or five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just very simple .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh um there's also a button to uh go to the channel you've been before . Like a web browser back button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have {disfmarker} Uh I did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think you use that . Y only when you want to go to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , just use uh when you wanna switch between channels all the time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how do you want to uh do it , like if you have a channel above ten ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Normally you can press one , zero or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think um f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A ten plus or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the ten plus button . Just uh one one pressing , or quickly after each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To just keep it simple and standard uh features .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to uh {disfmarker} Because you h have to be fast enough . Maybe the elderly people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah mayb", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It gets some seconds .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But I think that's in the T_V_ as well . That's how the uh the T_V_ T_V_ handles it . But you can have a button that says um two two st two stripes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's no it's not a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have uh like a five seconds period to press those two buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's th mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's what Paul says . It's not a remote control uh uh that um uh makes the T_V_ um do one two . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must uh type one or two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two uh stripes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that {disfmarker} And not for elderly people to look , one two uh press and aim and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's only for television now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I just thought of another one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Most things in modern T_V_s are also on the menu .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you also need a menu button . And then uh navigation uh {disfmarker} But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you have", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like um uh m maybe uh switch channels and uh volume and k that kind of things , and uh the menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "four arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because you n almost never use menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , a mute button . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know where where you have to put it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker} I think that's the layers that produce . Now I have to figure out what's uh what to put on . What we're gonna use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah . Yeah . That's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And later we can d uh do the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , uh now my personal preferences . Uh using the standards , basic {disfmarker} Um I think that we should stand out uh unique , being unique with the design . So we have to , I dunno , uh make a different shape than usual . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . Not just in in the row when you see all the same uh remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Does it have to be {disfmarker} Uh it has to be uh with different colours", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I dunno . Different colours um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can give it out in different colours . You can choose blue or yellow", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's like a iMac or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just to make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well why not ? Or {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's fa That's fancy . That's uh fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it looks cheap as well , because it's a small thing . It's only twenty five Euros . It looks very cheap if you make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you can look at uh mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , you just {disfmarker} I dunno what happened .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They they're uh designed very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And well basically are the same , just a bit smaller . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh well , I think that's a good example .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we hurry up a bit , because otherwise we won't make it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is it fin Are you finished ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I'm finished . I think we discussed everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , the working design . The method I used is uh search the web . Just the web page provided . Um {disfmarker} Basically I'm I'm not very technical uh uh educated , but uh I could figure it out . Um basically what happens is you press a button , uh then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , uh like a switch . And by closing that certain circuit , the chip knows uh what bu button is pressed . So like you press a one , that circuit is closed and uh {disfmarker} Then the chip produces a pattern . Like a Morse code to uh {disfmarker} And and sends that to the uh L_E_D_ . That's the uh light emitting diode , I think . Um and the light emitting diode is uh producing infrared light . That's un uh invisible to the human eye . And uh transmit that uh to the T_V_ . However it has also an uh a visible uh diode that's uh blinking red if you look in it . And that's uh another diode , I believe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because infrared is not visible . So that's er uh do two different things", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . I I think so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh j Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I'm not sure if it's the same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's usable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's active .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or just a green one ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because it's {disfmarker} If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think it's in the case that it's active . It's not uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , when you press it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's it's just uh the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Red's l shows up like something's wrong ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and green is like it's okay , you press the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe depends on uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ma on on most on most uh uh remote controls it's red .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we make it red .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we don't have to make it red . Maybe integrate it in the design as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to {disfmarker} The whole the whole uh remote control becomes uh green if you press the buttons . Uh that's cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I I think uh the batteries will be uh {vocalsound} a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Empty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe it's it is would an e No . Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , we have a recharger in it , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we can still make that then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it doesn't have to be red .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just to indicate something's on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . That it's working . That it's not not the batteries are low .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's cool if it was green .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's it's not very important ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Green or red or whatever , it is cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know . Just to indicate it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh the receptor in the T_V_ senses the pattern . So we have to understand what patterns are used to , you know , to make it universal . So that it can be used with all the T_V_s . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can uh o On the {disfmarker} Otherwise it won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to uh make buttons for that as well , to make it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I I uh {disfmarker} The chip um uh is producing the pattern . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An automatically search function for each television , or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That are working . Yeah , or {disfmarker} I dunno how it's uh exactly how it works . It wasn't explained there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I I use a universal uh remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I kno", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {gap} list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . And you have to put in a number , so it works on your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , I have a modern one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the modern one you you uh you type uh search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . And uh uh uh after uh a short time the television turns off . And then you know , oh it it's the right one . And you can stop it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's okay . So you don't have to search for your television or your code .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh search uh the pattern for itself .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so we use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it uh {disfmarker} We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . Because you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just say {disfmarker} Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking {disfmarker} There's just a short {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh okay . Well uh y you have this chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh when the circuit is closed , it produces the pattern .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh ma basically for uh brands of T_V_ these patterns are different . So like when you press a one on one T_V_ it go go to one . And on the other T_V_ it won't work , basically . So uh basically what you have to do is uh get these patterns right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh by d uh that can be done by uh just uh cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Changing the signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , uh is trying to switch off the television . And when it's uh switched off , you can push a button as uh it's working now , so {disfmarker} And then he saves that setting", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then um it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the right uh option .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well uh the components .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't {disfmarker} I w I was a little short on time . Um but I think I understand it . Um the energy source is uh the battery , basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um that's connecting to all the components .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because it has to be fed with energy . Okay . Uh the subcomponent is uh w I I think it is uh the button pressed . So basically when you press a button , a switch get closed . Um that's connecting to a chip . So the chip knows what button you pressed . And the chip sends out uh the pattern to the infrared bulb . I didn didn't put the description by this one . Th this is a normal bulb . So the normal flashing light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the LED , L_E_D_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and this is a LED too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But this one is producing infrared light", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's invisible . And this one is producing normal light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we can make the normal one also a normal light . Not a LED light , but as a normal one . To flash up your {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh if you if you use the buttons , uh both of them works . But one you can't see and one indicates that you use a button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , presu Yeah yeah yeah . Because uh when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can {disfmarker} Basically if the battery is low , it won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you have to uh put uh a small light around the button you push . So you see green if you push that button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh , that's a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm I think it's unnecessary power uh you use then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're uh sending a signal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , y Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And it's {disfmarker} you also know which button you p", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But then have to be on the in the all uh remote control have to be LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everywhere in the r", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I don't think so , but {disfmarker} Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That looks different , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our uh motto also is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is LEDs uh beneath the the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but mm like when you push it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah , then then won't {disfmarker} Then you won't see it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "n n Yeah . You have your finger over the button . So you can see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It must be around it then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or or m maybe on top of the {disfmarker} A green light is flashing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Not not not not here , but here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . There . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah , we're thinking about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you push {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh on a mobile phone , in the dark uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It lights up . Everything lights up . That's a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "everything lights up . Why ain't that on a remote control ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it only takes a l a little energy and it's not that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if uh a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's f Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea for old people as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's only few LEDs . Only four or something . Four LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I dunno . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's a good idea , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . We'll have enough power", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Everything agre", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Everyone agrees with that , or {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe what Paul said , uh under the {disfmarker} on the on the home station , uh a button to uh to call your uh remote control , that it beeps .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then you {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But you have to make a sound device in it then .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And also it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , there must be sound in it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , it shouldn't take much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . B maybe it's that that's a little too hard to make . Especially for that kind of money . Because it's i it has to be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm uh , twenty five Euros , I think we can make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Production cost is uh t uh twelve and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Bec Twelve and a half , okay . But but we only have to make it for television , and um we must have something special .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think uh you also have uh {vocalsound} remote controls with a lot of options .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But we lose about ninety percent of those options . So I think you can uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . We have to give our customers some extras .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think we will save money with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Are you almost finished or just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because I was short on time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No worry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Basically what we could do too is uh have a Bluetooth uh integration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I just want to talk some {disfmarker} about some more . So maybe you have to {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . Wh what's that ? So uh {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . We have some new uh project requirements . We have to have a look what they are . They're still in um {disfmarker} Uh teletext has become outdated since the popularity of internet . So a teletext option , maybe we have to skip that one . I'm not sure . I don't think so ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I I think a lot of people use uh teletext , still use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . It's only one button . So I don't think it is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We definitely should use it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh what I told you . The remote control should only be used for a television . So that's maybe easier . And um the the forty plus people , I already told you . Oh no , sorry . Oh , this is a problem . Oh sorry about that . The new product should reach a new market with customers are the younger than forty . So it should be flashy or just more interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , that's {disfmarker} It changes things .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm sorry about that . I just I just didn't read it well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So does it make some decision about that ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Changes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That kinda changes the whole situation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , then we have to make some nice features . I think uh the thing in the dark is a good way ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That still stays .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to make it more like a mobile phone . More modern .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's important I think and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "L_C_D_ doesn't work for uh twelve and a half Euros I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm ah {disfmarker} I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , I'm watching uh the channel one . Okay . {vocalsound} No , it's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah . What other features can we put in ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think you you have to make it a bit flashy and and popular . And uh then the usability is not that required , because the {disfmarker} Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh some of you had uh something to read about um {vocalsound} uh speech uh recognition . About you said one and the television turns on one . Is that reachable maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I didn't read {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very {disfmarker} That's fancy . That's cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's very fashion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I didn't read any", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Twelve and you've got twelve .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "b Yeah . Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Only the numbers , only numbers . Uh furthermore nothing . But only the numbers , one to twenty or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That should be cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to integrate that as well . If it's possible . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If it's possible ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's very expensive actually .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno . I didn't read it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Why should it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if i if i", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You only have a microphone in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I didn't have information about that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it has to work . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nah , maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah that's a problem , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And and uh w Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh only in English . Only in English I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} But uh I dunno how that works then . Uh does your uh {disfmarker} Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh one to have in channel one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that {disfmarker} Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do {vocalsound} do we do it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's more if we if we do it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno . So , is it very usable ? That's what I'm looking at .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and do you have to speak in in like in a thing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe maybe it's too hard to uh to realise that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} We have short time to to put it on the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so that {disfmarker} We have to do a lot of testing before we can do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Yeah well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so . {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We make uh make uh , we can make th th the new remote control very flashy . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In uh indeed uh the languages are a difficult thing . Uh because we we have a lot of languages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d Yeah . I don't think it's uh useful enough to take the effort to design something with uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech uh speech recognition , you can just throw the uh {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A uh someone says that uh give me one Coke , and the T_V_ turns uh to one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the remote away . Mm . Hmm . Mm . Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's not uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's the right command . And then you have to say uh T_V_ channel one , or something . Not just one ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Hmm yeah , T_V_ one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but th that becomes your f Uh uh because that's very hard for uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well I dunno . But I don't think , it just ain't useful enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we have to make some decisions . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , no speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "you can see on the uh {disfmarker} So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make uh a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , we just take that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what else , we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Also the one in the dark . So uh {disfmarker} It lights up when it's dark ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's {disfmarker} Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you push something , it it all lights up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it mustn't work all the time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's what I mean .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It uh uh it have to work only when you use it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or you can switch it on or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or maybe when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , if you use one button , it must turn uh on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . It lights up all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You have to {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right . That's what I said . It's the same as the telephone . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . D Yeah , alright . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do we use a a {disfmarker} Uh what's it called ? Like a iMac , {gap} if you can look through it . Or just a normal remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe just as an option , w like we discussed , like iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm , maybe it's a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , uh maybe use even different fonts .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Different colours . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so y you just make it th through {disfmarker} You look through it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A see-through . Mm , that's cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh as an option maybe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And so the buttons we have , this is , yeah , this is normal . We put in the the simple buttons on the top ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have {disfmarker} You had a lot of different buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we but we don't {disfmarker} We don't really have any complicated buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe you have you have to {disfmarker} Uh when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , but {disfmarker} Yeah , well w I think the buttons are very easy . With just uh standard buttons we just have so little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "O but maybe you can put um the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . Because you ne almost never use it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I don't need don't need {disfmarker} Uh teletext options are only four buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but younger people I think um more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I use teletext as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I use te teletext every day , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . For me too , it is . So we just keep it one level then ? Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , one level . And I think , uh 'cause um we don't have that many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the design is most important . You can d uh integrate the buttons in the design very much .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause {gap} simple buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you put one above it , it's clear .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it for toda for {disfmarker} We're going to have a lunch lunch break . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "How long is lunch break ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So yeah , you know what you have to do . This is uh this is it . You get your meal and everything , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Trendwatching . Okay . That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yo .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , we're finished for t for this time . We're going to have some lunch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} I just forgot their name , so uh you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you know them or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The names ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For for for my sur um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Jens .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , but your b your surname .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh Damman . D_ A_ W_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "W_O_ da . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh uh M_ M_ . I mean M_ . Double M_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And what's your name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Paul Wiezer . Paul Wiezer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A_ E_ Z_ zee zee", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh zee {gap} . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "E_ R_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's your name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh Martijn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but your surname . {vocalsound} Your surname .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Uh Abbing . A_ B_ B_ I_ N_ G_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I was a little short on time ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too , so that's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , same here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , I just fi first my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let's see . Which one was mine ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . {gap} Okay , perfect . So we have {disfmarker} Oh no , what's that ? So so we have uh forty minutes for this uh for this second meeting , and we have to make uh sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that we know what we're going to make uh th what the product is going to like {disfmarker} look like . Uh first I have the notes of the last meeting , so I showed uh show them to you . Oh , sorry about that , I just escape this one . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s uh presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh left .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And show , sorry . Okay , so let's have a look s at this one . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the um {disfmarker} Should be a univ uh universal remote control {disfmarker} No , that's {disfmarker} I uh s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . So have you changed that part ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so {disfmarker} yeah , it still has to be uh f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . It's it's still the same . Um {disfmarker} All these points uh we have to look at . You all know them . But uh there's another point . The um uh the main uh people of interest of this company are forty plus people . So they're old and not younger people . So we have to look at that as well . 'Specially old people , maybe bi bigger buttons or something , I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh so {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one first ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh it doesn't matter , just start with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functional requirements , yeah", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . Wait . Um I've used a marketing report on uh the site . Uh I think you've uh read it too . Uh and uh f and furthermore I uh surfed the o the other site .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You didn't read it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I didn't get it uh anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I didn don't thing we got it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's only for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay , I I was the only one who get it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay it was uh uh uh um um {vocalsound} a report about uh an experiment with uh a lot of users . And uh they had a lot of findings in their report uh with statistical uh uh uh thing uh with statistical uh proof . So I um I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of uh a lot of findings . So we can use this uh to uh create our own remote control . Uh seventy five percent of the users find uh most remote controls ugly . Yeah , I think uh uh that's a lot , so we have to make a beautiful remote control . Uh eighty percent of users would spend when uh a remote control will l uh look fancy . I think this fits uh at the {vocalsound} uh what what uh Michael said about uh older people . Older people will uh spend more money uh for uh something uh uh what's good . Because younger people are more critical uh about uh uh where they spend their money money at . Uh seventy five percent uh seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot . Well okay , that's uh normal . I think uh we we have to make uh good zap buttons . But that's one of our requirements .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The last point is quite an interesting {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um Martijn alr already said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh maybe our uh fold open system is is a good one , but {disfmarker} I don't think it's uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then you're you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That that's a good one . Um uh page two . Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room . That's exactly what we said about um maybe a home station for uh for it uh to uh recharge the batteries or something . Uh I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you {vocalsound} clap your hands it will beep or something . Uh you must find it uh quickly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . Maybe just a button on the home station . So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Yeah , we can uh combine that . Uh it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control . Uh I think we must t uh take a look at this . It's only uh th thirty four of the {vocalsound} thirty four percent . But it's uh a tough one . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c uh this is so difficult , uh a difficulty I think . Uh next , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't {disfmarker} We we haven't {disfmarker} Uh we mustn't look too much at uh the last point . Okay , last page .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the last uh experiment uh was about gadgets , like uh speech recognition . We didn't uh think about that already . And uh an L_C_D_ on the remote control . We already thought about that . Um uh they finally had a conclusion that younger people um uh under an age of f forty five are uh more interested in new features . And but they're more critical . And older people uh want to spend uh more money . {vocalsound} But uh they uh they don't want to uh have a lot of uh new features , because they're in their old uh thinking way . And they want to keep the old uh things the old things . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we have uh a new uh age of forty plus .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But y But you but you already said that the uh company was about uh forty plus uh clients ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think we can speak , uh we can skip speech recognition uh directly ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because it's not reachable for twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then {disfmarker} I have my personal uh preference . Okay , that's {vocalsound} not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . I had a question about . But it's already out of the question , this . Um my point is , well , I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If we ma uh make a a remote uh control for only television , I think it's hard to uh sell it for twenty five Euros . But it's the exercise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because it's too expensive . Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , only only for television uh {disfmarker} On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi mm we m must made it make it uh very special .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but good usability , so you can use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , I told about the home station . Uh it must be simple , because uh our the the elderly people uh needs to use it . And I I found a motto . And we put the fashion in electronics . And that's uh the motto we are uh referenced to uh for our uh our style . We we have to make a {vocalsound} a new product . We have to be um {disfmarker} Yeah . One of a kind , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it has to look uh uh uh unique ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unique .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The company is about our uh th th their own fashion , their own style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I reckon {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But old people are not looking for that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can uh make it a special product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to k to keep it simple when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh we also have to stand out ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry I thought about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . So make it just a different colour or different shape ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , this was uh my presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Paul , you can do the next one if you want .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can ask some questions or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah well {disfmarker} Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's on the on the uh net net uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Technical functions design . Okay , well , so we have s mm uh broad audience . Isn't {disfmarker} that isn't true anymore . But um we have elderly people , so we need to keep it simple . Uh the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen uh standard . So standardised uh methods like uh on all uh remote controls . Not too full , like uh Jens already said , only ten percent is being used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have it on the next page .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yes uh basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff . Um so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . Uh an icon on it or text on it , so it's very clear what that buttons does . So it doesn't take much time to figure out uh how to use it . Um a way to find out uh what people use is maybe just to use uh questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to find out . But there is already in a one done . Of functions I could think of . Uh volume , channels , the the basic according to {gap} . Just one two three etcetera . Uh text service options . Um basic on-off . And I found an uh {disfmarker} Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same um pages on text and always have to click the number .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . So you might as well remember the number . Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe i maybe it's too complicated ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but not sure {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a good idea , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker} It was just a thought . So I'm , I u {disfmarker} I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . But um how can you remember what uh channel uh connects to what favourite button ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what I was reading on the page . Uh a remote control just sends commands , basics commands to uh the television . So switch to channel six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh button six says says six . And if you make favourites , it can say six six six in a row . Just numbers . That can be in the in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . But uh uh for a user to to remember , if I press that button it goes to that channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you said a favourite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh mayb for me it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well i", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Never ? Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , neither do I .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh are you ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay now , m maybe not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If I don't do it , maybe old people {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , maybe elderly people uh . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They don't like new features . So maybe not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um well play , pause . I dunno if that's usable", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not , it's still not {disfmarker} It's not anymore n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "when {disfmarker} Not anymore for T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , on off . {vocalsound} I dunno , miss {disfmarker} Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just on the front as well . No , that's the only th the only thing you need .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh the p uh next and previous . Previous I know , but next channel ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just the channel um uh {disfmarker} What I mean is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't thi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forward .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Li like a web browser ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six seven eight or five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just very simple .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh um there's also a button to uh go to the channel you've been before . Like a web browser back button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have {disfmarker} Uh I did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think you use that . Y only when you want to go to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , just use uh when you wanna switch between channels all the time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how do you want to uh do it , like if you have a channel above ten ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Normally you can press one , zero or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think um f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A ten plus or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the ten plus button . Just uh one one pressing , or quickly after each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To just keep it simple and standard uh features .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to uh {disfmarker} Because you h have to be fast enough . Maybe the elderly people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah mayb", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It gets some seconds .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But I think that's in the T_V_ as well . That's how the uh the T_V_ T_V_ handles it . But you can have a button that says um two two st two stripes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's no it's not a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have uh like a five seconds period to press those two buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's th mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's what Paul says . It's not a remote control uh uh that um uh makes the T_V_ um do one two . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must uh type one or two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two uh stripes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that {disfmarker} And not for elderly people to look , one two uh press and aim and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's only for television now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I just thought of another one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Most things in modern T_V_s are also on the menu .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you also need a menu button . And then uh navigation uh {disfmarker} But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you have", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like um uh m maybe uh switch channels and uh volume and k that kind of things , and uh the menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "four arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because you n almost never use menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , a mute button . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know where where you have to put it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker} I think that's the layers that produce . Now I have to figure out what's uh what to put on . What we're gonna use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah . Yeah . That's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And later we can d uh do the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , uh now my personal preferences . Uh using the standards , basic {disfmarker} Um I think that we should stand out uh unique , being unique with the design . So we have to , I dunno , uh make a different shape than usual . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . Not just in in the row when you see all the same uh remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Does it have to be {disfmarker} Uh it has to be uh with different colours", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I dunno . Different colours um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can give it out in different colours . You can choose blue or yellow", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's like a iMac or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just to make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well why not ? Or {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's fa That's fancy . That's uh fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it looks cheap as well , because it's a small thing . It's only twenty five Euros . It looks very cheap if you make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you can look at uh mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , you just {disfmarker} I dunno what happened .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They they're uh designed very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And well basically are the same , just a bit smaller . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh well , I think that's a good example .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we hurry up a bit , because otherwise we won't make it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is it fin Are you finished ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I'm finished . I think we discussed everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , the working design . The method I used is uh search the web . Just the web page provided . Um {disfmarker} Basically I'm I'm not very technical uh uh educated , but uh I could figure it out . Um basically what happens is you press a button , uh then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , uh like a switch . And by closing that certain circuit , the chip knows uh what bu button is pressed . So like you press a one , that circuit is closed and uh {disfmarker} Then the chip produces a pattern . Like a Morse code to uh {disfmarker} And and sends that to the uh L_E_D_ . That's the uh light emitting diode , I think . Um and the light emitting diode is uh producing infrared light . That's un uh invisible to the human eye . And uh transmit that uh to the T_V_ . However it has also an uh a visible uh diode that's uh blinking red if you look in it . And that's uh another diode , I believe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because infrared is not visible . So that's er uh do two different things", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . I I think so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh j Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I'm not sure if it's the same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's usable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's active .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or just a green one ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because it's {disfmarker} If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think it's in the case that it's active . It's not uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , when you press it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's it's just uh the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Red's l shows up like something's wrong ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and green is like it's okay , you press the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe depends on uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ma on on most on most uh uh remote controls it's red .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we make it red .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we don't have to make it red . Maybe integrate it in the design as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to {disfmarker} The whole the whole uh remote control becomes uh green if you press the buttons . Uh that's cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I I think uh the batteries will be uh {vocalsound} a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Empty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe it's it is would an e No . Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , we have a recharger in it , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we can still make that then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it doesn't have to be red .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just to indicate something's on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . That it's working . That it's not not the batteries are low .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's cool if it was green .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's it's not very important ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Green or red or whatever , it is cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know . Just to indicate it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh the receptor in the T_V_ senses the pattern . So we have to understand what patterns are used to , you know , to make it universal . So that it can be used with all the T_V_s . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can uh o On the {disfmarker} Otherwise it won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to uh make buttons for that as well , to make it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I I uh {disfmarker} The chip um uh is producing the pattern . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An automatically search function for each television , or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That are working . Yeah , or {disfmarker} I dunno how it's uh exactly how it works . It wasn't explained there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I I use a universal uh remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I kno", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {gap} list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . And you have to put in a number , so it works on your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , I have a modern one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the modern one you you uh you type uh search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . And uh uh uh after uh a short time the television turns off . And then you know , oh it it's the right one . And you can stop it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's okay . So you don't have to search for your television or your code .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh search uh the pattern for itself .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so we use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it uh {disfmarker} We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . Because you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just say {disfmarker} Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking {disfmarker} There's just a short {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh okay . Well uh y you have this chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh when the circuit is closed , it produces the pattern .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh ma basically for uh brands of T_V_ these patterns are different . So like when you press a one on one T_V_ it go go to one . And on the other T_V_ it won't work , basically . So uh basically what you have to do is uh get these patterns right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh by d uh that can be done by uh just uh cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Changing the signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , uh is trying to switch off the television . And when it's uh switched off , you can push a button as uh it's working now , so {disfmarker} And then he saves that setting", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then um it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the right uh option .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well uh the components .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't {disfmarker} I w I was a little short on time . Um but I think I understand it . Um the energy source is uh the battery , basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um that's connecting to all the components .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because it has to be fed with energy . Okay . Uh the subcomponent is uh w I I think it is uh the button pressed . So basically when you press a button , a switch get closed . Um that's connecting to a chip . So the chip knows what button you pressed . And the chip sends out uh the pattern to the infrared bulb . I didn didn't put the description by this one . Th this is a normal bulb . So the normal flashing light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the LED , L_E_D_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and this is a LED too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But this one is producing infrared light", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's invisible . And this one is producing normal light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we can make the normal one also a normal light . Not a LED light , but as a normal one . To flash up your {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh if you if you use the buttons , uh both of them works . But one you can't see and one indicates that you use a button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , presu Yeah yeah yeah . Because uh when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can {disfmarker} Basically if the battery is low , it won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you have to uh put uh a small light around the button you push . So you see green if you push that button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh , that's a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm I think it's unnecessary power uh you use then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're uh sending a signal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , y Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And it's {disfmarker} you also know which button you p", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But then have to be on the in the all uh remote control have to be LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everywhere in the r", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I don't think so , but {disfmarker} Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That looks different , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our uh motto also is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is LEDs uh beneath the the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but mm like when you push it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah , then then won't {disfmarker} Then you won't see it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "n n Yeah . You have your finger over the button . So you can see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It must be around it then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or or m maybe on top of the {disfmarker} A green light is flashing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Not not not not here , but here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . There . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah , we're thinking about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you push {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh on a mobile phone , in the dark uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It lights up . Everything lights up . That's a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "everything lights up . Why ain't that on a remote control ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it only takes a l a little energy and it's not that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if uh a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's f Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea for old people as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's only few LEDs . Only four or something . Four LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I dunno . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's a good idea , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . We'll have enough power", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Everything agre", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Everyone agrees with that , or {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe what Paul said , uh under the {disfmarker} on the on the home station , uh a button to uh to call your uh remote control , that it beeps .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then you {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But you have to make a sound device in it then .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And also it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , there must be sound in it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , it shouldn't take much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . B maybe it's that that's a little too hard to make . Especially for that kind of money . Because it's i it has to be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm uh , twenty five Euros , I think we can make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Production cost is uh t uh twelve and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Bec Twelve and a half , okay . But but we only have to make it for television , and um we must have something special .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think uh you also have uh {vocalsound} remote controls with a lot of options .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But we lose about ninety percent of those options . So I think you can uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . We have to give our customers some extras .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think we will save money with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Are you almost finished or just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because I was short on time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No worry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Basically what we could do too is uh have a Bluetooth uh integration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I just want to talk some {disfmarker} about some more . So maybe you have to {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . Wh what's that ? So uh {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . We have some new uh project requirements . We have to have a look what they are . They're still in um {disfmarker} Uh teletext has become outdated since the popularity of internet . So a teletext option , maybe we have to skip that one . I'm not sure . I don't think so ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I I think a lot of people use uh teletext , still use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . It's only one button . So I don't think it is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We definitely should use it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh what I told you . The remote control should only be used for a television . So that's maybe easier . And um the the forty plus people , I already told you . Oh no , sorry . Oh , this is a problem . Oh sorry about that . The new product should reach a new market with customers are the younger than forty . So it should be flashy or just more interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , that's {disfmarker} It changes things .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm sorry about that . I just I just didn't read it well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So does it make some decision about that ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Changes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That kinda changes the whole situation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , then we have to make some nice features . I think uh the thing in the dark is a good way ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That still stays .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to make it more like a mobile phone . More modern .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's important I think and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "L_C_D_ doesn't work for uh twelve and a half Euros I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm ah {disfmarker} I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , I'm watching uh the channel one . Okay . {vocalsound} No , it's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah . What other features can we put in ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think you you have to make it a bit flashy and and popular . And uh then the usability is not that required , because the {disfmarker} Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh some of you had uh something to read about um {vocalsound} uh speech uh recognition . About you said one and the television turns on one . Is that reachable maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I didn't read {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very {disfmarker} That's fancy . That's cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's very fashion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I didn't read any", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Twelve and you've got twelve .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "b Yeah . Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Only the numbers , only numbers . Uh furthermore nothing . But only the numbers , one to twenty or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That should be cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to integrate that as well . If it's possible . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If it's possible ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's very expensive actually .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno . I didn't read it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Why should it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if i if i", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You only have a microphone in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I didn't have information about that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it has to work . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nah , maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah that's a problem , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And and uh w Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh only in English . Only in English I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} But uh I dunno how that works then . Uh does your uh {disfmarker} Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh one to have in channel one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that {disfmarker} Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do {vocalsound} do we do it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's more if we if we do it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno . So , is it very usable ? That's what I'm looking at .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and do you have to speak in in like in a thing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe maybe it's too hard to uh to realise that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} We have short time to to put it on the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so that {disfmarker} We have to do a lot of testing before we can do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Yeah well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so . {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We make uh make uh , we can make th th the new remote control very flashy . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In uh indeed uh the languages are a difficult thing . Uh because we we have a lot of languages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d Yeah . I don't think it's uh useful enough to take the effort to design something with uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech uh speech recognition , you can just throw the uh {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A uh someone says that uh give me one Coke , and the T_V_ turns uh to one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the remote away . Mm . Hmm . Mm . Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's not uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's the right command . And then you have to say uh T_V_ channel one , or something . Not just one ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Hmm yeah , T_V_ one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but th that becomes your f Uh uh because that's very hard for uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well I dunno . But I don't think , it just ain't useful enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we have to make some decisions . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , no speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "you can see on the uh {disfmarker} So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make uh a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , we just take that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what else , we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Also the one in the dark . So uh {disfmarker} It lights up when it's dark ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's {disfmarker} Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you push something , it it all lights up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it mustn't work all the time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's what I mean .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It uh uh it have to work only when you use it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or you can switch it on or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or maybe when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , if you use one button , it must turn uh on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . It lights up all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You have to {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right . That's what I said . It's the same as the telephone . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . D Yeah , alright . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do we use a a {disfmarker} Uh what's it called ? Like a iMac , {gap} if you can look through it . Or just a normal remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe just as an option , w like we discussed , like iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm , maybe it's a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , uh maybe use even different fonts .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Different colours . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so y you just make it th through {disfmarker} You look through it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A see-through . Mm , that's cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh as an option maybe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And so the buttons we have , this is , yeah , this is normal . We put in the the simple buttons on the top ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have {disfmarker} You had a lot of different buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we but we don't {disfmarker} We don't really have any complicated buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe you have you have to {disfmarker} Uh when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , but {disfmarker} Yeah , well w I think the buttons are very easy . With just uh standard buttons we just have so little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "O but maybe you can put um the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . Because you ne almost never use it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I don't need don't need {disfmarker} Uh teletext options are only four buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but younger people I think um more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I use teletext as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I use te teletext every day , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . For me too , it is . So we just keep it one level then ? Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , one level . And I think , uh 'cause um we don't have that many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the design is most important . You can d uh integrate the buttons in the design very much .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause {gap} simple buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you put one above it , it's clear .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it for toda for {disfmarker} We're going to have a lunch lunch break . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "How long is lunch break ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So yeah , you know what you have to do . This is uh this is it . You get your meal and everything , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Trendwatching . Okay . That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yo .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , we're finished for t for this time . We're going to have some lunch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} I just forgot their name , so uh you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you know them or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The names ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For for for my sur um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Jens .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , but your b your surname .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh Damman . D_ A_ W_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "W_O_ da . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh uh M_ M_ . I mean M_ . Double M_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And what's your name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Paul Wiezer . Paul Wiezer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A_ E_ Z_ zee zee", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh zee {gap} . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "E_ R_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's your name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh Martijn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but your surname . {vocalsound} Your surname .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Uh Abbing . A_ B_ B_ I_ N_ G_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I was a little short on time ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , me too , so that's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , same here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , I just fi first my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let's see . Which one was mine ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . {gap} Okay , perfect . So we have {disfmarker} Oh no , what's that ? So so we have uh forty minutes for this uh for this second meeting , and we have to make uh sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that we know what we're going to make uh th what the product is going to like {disfmarker} look like . Uh first I have the notes of the last meeting , so I showed uh show them to you . Oh , sorry about that , I just escape this one . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s uh presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh left .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And show , sorry . Okay , so let's have a look s at this one . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the um {disfmarker} Should be a univ uh universal remote control {disfmarker} No , that's {disfmarker} I uh s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . So have you changed that part ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so {disfmarker} yeah , it still has to be uh f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . It's it's still the same . Um {disfmarker} All these points uh we have to look at . You all know them . But uh there's another point . The um uh the main uh people of interest of this company are forty plus people . So they're old and not younger people . So we have to look at that as well . 'Specially old people , maybe bi bigger buttons or something , I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh so {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one first ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh it doesn't matter , just start with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functional requirements , yeah", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . Wait . Um I've used a marketing report on uh the site . Uh I think you've uh read it too . Uh and uh f and furthermore I uh surfed the o the other site .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You didn't read it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I didn't get it uh anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I didn don't thing we got it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's only for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay , I I was the only one who get it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay it was uh uh uh um um {vocalsound} a report about uh an experiment with uh a lot of users . And uh they had a lot of findings in their report uh with statistical uh uh uh thing uh with statistical uh proof . So I um I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of uh a lot of findings . So we can use this uh to uh create our own remote control . Uh seventy five percent of the users find uh most remote controls ugly . Yeah , I think uh uh that's a lot , so we have to make a beautiful remote control . Uh eighty percent of users would spend when uh a remote control will l uh look fancy . I think this fits uh at the {vocalsound} uh what what uh Michael said about uh older people . Older people will uh spend more money uh for uh something uh uh what's good . Because younger people are more critical uh about uh uh where they spend their money money at . Uh seventy five percent uh seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot . Well okay , that's uh normal . I think uh we we have to make uh good zap buttons . But that's one of our requirements .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The last point is quite an interesting {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um Martijn alr already said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh maybe our uh fold open system is is a good one , but {disfmarker} I don't think it's uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then you're you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That that's a good one . Um uh page two . Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room . That's exactly what we said about um maybe a home station for uh for it uh to uh recharge the batteries or something . Uh I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you {vocalsound} clap your hands it will beep or something . Uh you must find it uh quickly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . Maybe just a button on the home station . So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Yeah , we can uh combine that . Uh it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control . Uh I think we must t uh take a look at this . It's only uh th thirty four of the {vocalsound} thirty four percent . But it's uh a tough one . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c uh this is so difficult , uh a difficulty I think . Uh next , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't {disfmarker} We we haven't {disfmarker} Uh we mustn't look too much at uh the last point . Okay , last page .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the last uh experiment uh was about gadgets , like uh speech recognition . We didn't uh think about that already . And uh an L_C_D_ on the remote control . We already thought about that . Um uh they finally had a conclusion that younger people um uh under an age of f forty five are uh more interested in new features . And but they're more critical . And older people uh want to spend uh more money . {vocalsound} But uh they uh they don't want to uh have a lot of uh new features , because they're in their old uh thinking way . And they want to keep the old uh things the old things . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we have uh a new uh age of forty plus .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But y But you but you already said that the uh company was about uh forty plus uh clients ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think we can speak , uh we can skip speech recognition uh directly ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because it's not reachable for twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then {disfmarker} I have my personal uh preference . Okay , that's {vocalsound} not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . I had a question about . But it's already out of the question , this . Um my point is , well , I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If we ma uh make a a remote uh control for only television , I think it's hard to uh sell it for twenty five Euros . But it's the exercise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because it's too expensive . Yeah , probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , only only for television uh {disfmarker} On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi mm we m must made it make it uh very special .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but good usability , so you can use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , I told about the home station . Uh it must be simple , because uh our the the elderly people uh needs to use it . And I I found a motto . And we put the fashion in electronics . And that's uh the motto we are uh referenced to uh for our uh our style . We we have to make a {vocalsound} a new product . We have to be um {disfmarker} Yeah . One of a kind , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it has to look uh uh uh unique ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unique .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The company is about our uh th th their own fashion , their own style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I reckon {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But old people are not looking for that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can uh make it a special product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to k to keep it simple when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh we also have to stand out ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry I thought about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . So make it just a different colour or different shape ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , this was uh my presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Paul , you can do the next one if you want .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can ask some questions or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah well {disfmarker} Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's on the on the uh net net uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Technical functions design . Okay , well , so we have s mm uh broad audience . Isn't {disfmarker} that isn't true anymore . But um we have elderly people , so we need to keep it simple . Uh the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen uh standard . So standardised uh methods like uh on all uh remote controls . Not too full , like uh Jens already said , only ten percent is being used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have it on the next page .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yes uh basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff . Um so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . Uh an icon on it or text on it , so it's very clear what that buttons does . So it doesn't take much time to figure out uh how to use it . Um a way to find out uh what people use is maybe just to use uh questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to find out . But there is already in a one done . Of functions I could think of . Uh volume , channels , the the basic according to {gap} . Just one two three etcetera . Uh text service options . Um basic on-off . And I found an uh {disfmarker} Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same um pages on text and always have to click the number .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . So you might as well remember the number . Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe i maybe it's too complicated ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but not sure {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a good idea , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker} It was just a thought . So I'm , I u {disfmarker} I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . But um how can you remember what uh channel uh connects to what favourite button ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what I was reading on the page . Uh a remote control just sends commands , basics commands to uh the television . So switch to channel six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh button six says says six . And if you make favourites , it can say six six six in a row . Just numbers . That can be in the in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . But uh uh for a user to to remember , if I press that button it goes to that channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you said a favourite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh mayb for me it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well i", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Never ? Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , neither do I .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh are you ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay now , m maybe not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If I don't do it , maybe old people {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , maybe elderly people uh . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They don't like new features . So maybe not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um well play , pause . I dunno if that's usable", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not , it's still not {disfmarker} It's not anymore n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "when {disfmarker} Not anymore for T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , on off . {vocalsound} I dunno , miss {disfmarker} Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just on the front as well . No , that's the only th the only thing you need .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh the p uh next and previous . Previous I know , but next channel ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just the channel um uh {disfmarker} What I mean is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't thi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forward .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Li like a web browser ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six seven eight or five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} Oh , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just very simple .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh um there's also a button to uh go to the channel you've been before . Like a web browser back button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have {disfmarker} Uh I did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think you use that . Y only when you want to go to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , just use uh when you wanna switch between channels all the time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how do you want to uh do it , like if you have a channel above ten ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Normally you can press one , zero or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think um f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A ten plus or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the ten plus button . Just uh one one pressing , or quickly after each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To just keep it simple and standard uh features .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to uh {disfmarker} Because you h have to be fast enough . Maybe the elderly people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah mayb", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It gets some seconds .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But I think that's in the T_V_ as well . That's how the uh the T_V_ T_V_ handles it . But you can have a button that says um two two st two stripes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's no it's not a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have uh like a five seconds period to press those two buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's th mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's what Paul says . It's not a remote control uh uh that um uh makes the T_V_ um do one two . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must uh type one or two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two uh stripes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that {disfmarker} And not for elderly people to look , one two uh press and aim and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's only for television now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I just thought of another one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Most things in modern T_V_s are also on the menu .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you also need a menu button . And then uh navigation uh {disfmarker} But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you have", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like um uh m maybe uh switch channels and uh volume and k that kind of things , and uh the menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "four arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because you n almost never use menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , a mute button . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know where where you have to put it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's that's {disfmarker} I think that's the layers that produce . Now I have to figure out what's uh what to put on . What we're gonna use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah . Yeah . That's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And later we can d uh do the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , uh now my personal preferences . Uh using the standards , basic {disfmarker} Um I think that we should stand out uh unique , being unique with the design . So we have to , I dunno , uh make a different shape than usual . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . Not just in in the row when you see all the same uh remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Does it have to be {disfmarker} Uh it has to be uh with different colours", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I dunno . Different colours um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can give it out in different colours . You can choose blue or yellow", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's like a iMac or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just to make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well why not ? Or {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's fa That's fancy . That's uh fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it looks cheap as well , because it's a small thing . It's only twenty five Euros . It looks very cheap if you make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you can look at uh mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , you just {disfmarker} I dunno what happened .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They they're uh designed very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And well basically are the same , just a bit smaller . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh well , I think that's a good example .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we hurry up a bit , because otherwise we won't make it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is it fin Are you finished ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I'm finished . I think we discussed everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , the working design . The method I used is uh search the web . Just the web page provided . Um {disfmarker} Basically I'm I'm not very technical uh uh educated , but uh I could figure it out . Um basically what happens is you press a button , uh then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , uh like a switch . And by closing that certain circuit , the chip knows uh what bu button is pressed . So like you press a one , that circuit is closed and uh {disfmarker} Then the chip produces a pattern . Like a Morse code to uh {disfmarker} And and sends that to the uh L_E_D_ . That's the uh light emitting diode , I think . Um and the light emitting diode is uh producing infrared light . That's un uh invisible to the human eye . And uh transmit that uh to the T_V_ . However it has also an uh a visible uh diode that's uh blinking red if you look in it . And that's uh another diode , I believe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because infrared is not visible . So that's er uh do two different things", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . I I think so . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh j Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I'm not sure if it's the same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's usable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's active .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or just a green one ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because it's {disfmarker} If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think it's in the case that it's active . It's not uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , when you press it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's it's just uh the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Red's l shows up like something's wrong ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and green is like it's okay , you press the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe depends on uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ma on on most on most uh uh remote controls it's red .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we make it red .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we don't have to make it red . Maybe integrate it in the design as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to {disfmarker} The whole the whole uh remote control becomes uh green if you press the buttons . Uh that's cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I I think uh the batteries will be uh {vocalsound} a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Empty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe it's it is would an e No . Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , we have a recharger in it , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we can still make that then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it doesn't have to be red .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just to indicate something's on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . That it's working . That it's not not the batteries are low .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's cool if it was green .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's it's not very important ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Green or red or whatever , it is cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know . Just to indicate it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh the receptor in the T_V_ senses the pattern . So we have to understand what patterns are used to , you know , to make it universal . So that it can be used with all the T_V_s . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can uh o On the {disfmarker} Otherwise it won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to uh make buttons for that as well , to make it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I I uh {disfmarker} The chip um uh is producing the pattern . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An automatically search function for each television , or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That are working . Yeah , or {disfmarker} I dunno how it's uh exactly how it works . It wasn't explained there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I I use a universal uh remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I kno", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {gap} list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . And you have to put in a number , so it works on your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , I have a modern one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the modern one you you uh you type uh search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . And uh uh uh after uh a short time the television turns off . And then you know , oh it it's the right one . And you can stop it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's okay . So you don't have to search for your television or your code .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh search uh the pattern for itself .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so we use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it uh {disfmarker} We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . Because you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just say {disfmarker} Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking {disfmarker} There's just a short {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh okay . Well uh y you have this chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh when the circuit is closed , it produces the pattern .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But uh ma basically for uh brands of T_V_ these patterns are different . So like when you press a one on one T_V_ it go go to one . And on the other T_V_ it won't work , basically . So uh basically what you have to do is uh get these patterns right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh by d uh that can be done by uh just uh cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Changing the signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , uh is trying to switch off the television . And when it's uh switched off , you can push a button as uh it's working now , so {disfmarker} And then he saves that setting", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then um it's working .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the right uh option .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well uh the components .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't {disfmarker} I w I was a little short on time . Um but I think I understand it . Um the energy source is uh the battery , basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um that's connecting to all the components .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because it has to be fed with energy . Okay . Uh the subcomponent is uh w I I think it is uh the button pressed . So basically when you press a button , a switch get closed . Um that's connecting to a chip . So the chip knows what button you pressed . And the chip sends out uh the pattern to the infrared bulb . I didn didn't put the description by this one . Th this is a normal bulb . So the normal flashing light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the LED , L_E_D_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and this is a LED too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But this one is producing infrared light", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's invisible . And this one is producing normal light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we can make the normal one also a normal light . Not a LED light , but as a normal one . To flash up your {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh if you if you use the buttons , uh both of them works . But one you can't see and one indicates that you use a button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , presu Yeah yeah yeah . Because uh when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can {disfmarker} Basically if the battery is low , it won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you have to uh put uh a small light around the button you push . So you see green if you push that button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh , that's a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm I think it's unnecessary power uh you use then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're uh sending a signal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , y Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And it's {disfmarker} you also know which button you p", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But then have to be on the in the all uh remote control have to be LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everywhere in the r", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I don't think so , but {disfmarker} Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That looks different , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our uh motto also is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is LEDs uh beneath the the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but mm like when you push it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah , then then won't {disfmarker} Then you won't see it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "n n Yeah . You have your finger over the button . So you can see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It must be around it then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or or m maybe on top of the {disfmarker} A green light is flashing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Not not not not here , but here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . There . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah , we're thinking about it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you push {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh on a mobile phone , in the dark uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It lights up . Everything lights up . That's a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "everything lights up . Why ain't that on a remote control ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it only takes a l a little energy and it's not that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , if uh a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's f Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe that's a good idea for old people as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's only few LEDs . Only four or something . Four LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I dunno . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's a good idea , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . We'll have enough power", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Everything agre", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Everyone agrees with that , or {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe what Paul said , uh under the {disfmarker} on the on the home station , uh a button to uh to call your uh remote control , that it beeps .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then you {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But you have to make a sound device in it then .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And also it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , there must be sound in it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , it shouldn't take much {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . B maybe it's that that's a little too hard to make . Especially for that kind of money . Because it's i it has to be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm uh , twenty five Euros , I think we can make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Production cost is uh t uh twelve and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Bec Twelve and a half , okay . But but we only have to make it for television , and um we must have something special .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think uh you also have uh {vocalsound} remote controls with a lot of options .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But we lose about ninety percent of those options . So I think you can uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . We have to give our customers some extras .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think we will save money with that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Are you almost finished or just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because I was short on time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No worry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Basically what we could do too is uh have a Bluetooth uh integration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I just want to talk some {disfmarker} about some more . So maybe you have to {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . Wh what's that ? So uh {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . We have some new uh project requirements . We have to have a look what they are . They're still in um {disfmarker} Uh teletext has become outdated since the popularity of internet . So a teletext option , maybe we have to skip that one . I'm not sure . I don't think so ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I I think a lot of people use uh teletext , still use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . It's only one button . So I don't think it is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We definitely should use it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh what I told you . The remote control should only be used for a television . So that's maybe easier . And um the the forty plus people , I already told you . Oh no , sorry . Oh , this is a problem . Oh sorry about that . The new product should reach a new market with customers are the younger than forty . So it should be flashy or just more interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , that's {disfmarker} It changes things .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm sorry about that . I just I just didn't read it well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So does it make some decision about that ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Changes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That kinda changes the whole situation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , then we have to make some nice features . I think uh the thing in the dark is a good way ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That still stays .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "to make it more like a mobile phone . More modern .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's important I think and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "L_C_D_ doesn't work for uh twelve and a half Euros I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm ah {disfmarker} I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , I'm watching uh the channel one . Okay . {vocalsound} No , it's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah . What other features can we put in ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think you you have to make it a bit flashy and and popular . And uh then the usability is not that required , because the {disfmarker} Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh some of you had uh something to read about um {vocalsound} uh speech uh recognition . About you said one and the television turns on one . Is that reachable maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I didn't read {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very {disfmarker} That's fancy . That's cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's very fashion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I didn't read any", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Twelve and you've got twelve .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "b Yeah . Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Only the numbers , only numbers . Uh furthermore nothing . But only the numbers , one to twenty or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That should be cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to integrate that as well . If it's possible . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If it's possible ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's very expensive actually .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno . I didn't read it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Why should it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if i if i", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You only have a microphone in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I didn't have information about that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it has to work . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nah , maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah that's a problem , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And and uh w Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh only in English . Only in English I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} But uh I dunno how that works then . Uh does your uh {disfmarker} Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh one to have in channel one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that {disfmarker} Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do {vocalsound} do we do it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's more if we if we do it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno . So , is it very usable ? That's what I'm looking at .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and do you have to speak in in like in a thing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe maybe it's too hard to uh to realise that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} We have short time to to put it on the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so that {disfmarker} We have to do a lot of testing before we can do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Yeah well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so . {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We make uh make uh , we can make th th the new remote control very flashy . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In uh indeed uh the languages are a difficult thing . Uh because we we have a lot of languages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d Yeah . I don't think it's uh useful enough to take the effort to design something with uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech uh speech recognition , you can just throw the uh {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A uh someone says that uh give me one Coke , and the T_V_ turns uh to one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the remote away . Mm . Hmm . Mm . Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's not uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's the right command . And then you have to say uh T_V_ channel one , or something . Not just one ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Hmm yeah , T_V_ one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but th that becomes your f Uh uh because that's very hard for uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well I dunno . But I don't think , it just ain't useful enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we have to make some decisions . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , no speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "you can see on the uh {disfmarker} So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make uh a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , we just take that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what else , we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Also the one in the dark . So uh {disfmarker} It lights up when it's dark ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it's {disfmarker} Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you push something , it it all lights up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it mustn't work all the time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's what I mean .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It uh uh it have to work only when you use it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or you can switch it on or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or maybe when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , if you use one button , it must turn uh on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . It lights up all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You have to {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right . That's what I said . It's the same as the telephone . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . D Yeah , alright . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do we use a a {disfmarker} Uh what's it called ? Like a iMac , {gap} if you can look through it . Or just a normal remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe just as an option , w like we discussed , like iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm , maybe it's a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , uh maybe use even different fonts .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Different colours . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so y you just make it th through {disfmarker} You look through it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A see-through . Mm , that's cool .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh as an option maybe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And so the buttons we have , this is , yeah , this is normal . We put in the the simple buttons on the top ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have {disfmarker} You had a lot of different buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we but we don't {disfmarker} We don't really have any complicated buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe you have you have to {disfmarker} Uh when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , but {disfmarker} Yeah , well w I think the buttons are very easy . With just uh standard buttons we just have so little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "O but maybe you can put um the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . Because you ne almost never use it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I don't need don't need {disfmarker} Uh teletext options are only four buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but younger people I think um more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I use teletext as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I use te teletext every day , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . For me too , it is . So we just keep it one level then ? Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , one level . And I think , uh 'cause um we don't have that many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the design is most important . You can d uh integrate the buttons in the design very much .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause {gap} simple buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you put one above it , it's clear .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it for toda for {disfmarker} We're going to have a lunch lunch break . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "How long is lunch break ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So yeah , you know what you have to do . This is uh this is it . You get your meal and everything , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Trendwatching . Okay . That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yo .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , we're finished for t for this time . We're going to have some lunch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bye .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not saved yet .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Our beautiful drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think that's better .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Together ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll give comments .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Means {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You wrote this , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's uh twelve buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} just so you get that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you pre Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To your video device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is i Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh if you s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um slides I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "From from the uh beneath ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For the bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , you gotta slide it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do we need ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Menu ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "God damn it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scart ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Extern or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't really matter .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh menu .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , to navigate .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The menu button , yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can put those here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So did we miss anything ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh wh Here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Did you think of that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh why not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "through view .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Just remember where it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's to remember .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Th i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's what the television does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , those memory functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . No no", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think just on the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think the space is worth it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Look-and-feel ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um {vocalsound} model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Flashy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um basic colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um company colours ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yellow light .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A bit a bit of yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black white , maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One more thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide panel ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , not needed I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That as well , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay . It's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but you don't have to use that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y just uh f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because there are so so n", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think it a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so just give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm uh . The normal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep , true . Then a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's not new .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that new ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The lighting's new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech is new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then we also have the the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We don't", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Home-station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "recharge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But that's more like uh now .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh untitled ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , just so it's still a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm two , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Th that's my question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think that's a two or a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you get different colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we give ourself a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's eleven .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What's the average ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Eleven divided by six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To call .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Call {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I did save it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So that's both .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four . It's four Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's included .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or a different style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's creativity .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Of course there was .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do you have to say about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "one leader or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So more like a secretary .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We're not finished .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , th that's weird .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We had to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , finance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But the teamwork was okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just doesn't work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just not work too slow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Precise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not just pointing out on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "like {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Digital pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We did it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "In the budget , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New ideas found .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For for for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So are we finished ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Quite early .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Let's play minesweeper .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I found it as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They went for uh for a universal device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The touchscreen , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm breaking a world record here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . No it's your choice .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just pick one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This the bomb ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrong . Shit .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I knew it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Come on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that previous work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I challenge you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's stupid .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We'll see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't agree .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Too bad .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is a very interesting design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's just the same as normal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} a pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Then do it correctly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , blank .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the new one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh they just don't save it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , not everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pen , select select pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's uh very hard to draw .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fuck . F", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Warning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're correct .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay this is a hard one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No more chit-chat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you gotta finish", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Che-che-che-che .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "over there ? In your own room ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" } ]

[ { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not saved yet .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Our beautiful drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think that's better .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Together ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll give comments .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Means {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You wrote this , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's uh twelve buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} just so you get that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you pre Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To your video device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is i Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh if you s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um slides I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "From from the uh beneath ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For the bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , you gotta slide it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do we need ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Menu ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "God damn it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scart ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Extern or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't really matter .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh menu .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , to navigate .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The menu button , yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can put those here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So did we miss anything ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh wh Here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Did you think of that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh why not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "through view .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Just remember where it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's to remember .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Th i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's what the television does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , those memory functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . No no", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think just on the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think the space is worth it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Look-and-feel ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um {vocalsound} model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Flashy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um basic colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um company colours ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yellow light .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A bit a bit of yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black white , maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One more thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide panel ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , not needed I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That as well , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay . It's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but you don't have to use that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y just uh f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because there are so so n", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think it a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so just give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm uh . The normal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep , true . Then a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's not new .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that new ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The lighting's new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech is new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then we also have the the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We don't", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Home-station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "recharge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But that's more like uh now .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh untitled ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , just so it's still a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm two , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Th that's my question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think that's a two or a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you get different colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we give ourself a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's eleven .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What's the average ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Eleven divided by six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To call .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Call {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I did save it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So that's both .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four . It's four Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's included .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or a different style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's creativity .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Of course there was .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do you have to say about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "one leader or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So more like a secretary .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We're not finished .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , th that's weird .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We had to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , finance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But the teamwork was okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just doesn't work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just not work too slow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Precise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not just pointing out on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "like {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Digital pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We did it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "In the budget , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New ideas found .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For for for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So are we finished ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Quite early .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Let's play minesweeper .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I found it as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They went for uh for a universal device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The touchscreen , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm breaking a world record here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . No it's your choice .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just pick one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This the bomb ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrong . Shit .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I knew it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Come on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that previous work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I challenge you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's stupid .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We'll see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't agree .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Too bad .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is a very interesting design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's just the same as normal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} a pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Then do it correctly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , blank .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the new one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh they just don't save it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , not everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pen , select select pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's uh very hard to draw .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fuck . F", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Warning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're correct .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay this is a hard one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No more chit-chat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you gotta finish", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Che-che-che-che .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "over there ? In your own room ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" } ]

[ { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not saved yet .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Our beautiful drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think that's better .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Together ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll give comments .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Means {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You wrote this , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's uh twelve buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} just so you get that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you pre Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To your video device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is i Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh if you s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um slides I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "From from the uh beneath ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For the bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , you gotta slide it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do we need ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Menu ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "God damn it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scart ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Extern or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't really matter .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh menu .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , to navigate .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The menu button , yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can put those here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So did we miss anything ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh wh Here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Did you think of that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh why not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "through view .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Just remember where it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's to remember .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Th i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's what the television does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , those memory functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . No no", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think just on the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think the space is worth it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Look-and-feel ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um {vocalsound} model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Flashy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um basic colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um company colours ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yellow light .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A bit a bit of yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black white , maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One more thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide panel ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , not needed I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That as well , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay . It's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but you don't have to use that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y just uh f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because there are so so n", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think it a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so just give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm uh . The normal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep , true . Then a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's not new .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that new ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The lighting's new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech is new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then we also have the the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We don't", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Home-station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "recharge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But that's more like uh now .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh untitled ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , just so it's still a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm two , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Th that's my question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think that's a two or a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you get different colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we give ourself a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's eleven .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What's the average ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Eleven divided by six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To call .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Call {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I did save it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So that's both .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four . It's four Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's included .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or a different style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's creativity .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Of course there was .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do you have to say about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "one leader or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So more like a secretary .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We're not finished .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , th that's weird .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We had to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , finance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But the teamwork was okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just doesn't work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just not work too slow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Precise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not just pointing out on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "like {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Digital pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We did it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "In the budget , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New ideas found .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For for for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So are we finished ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Quite early .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Let's play minesweeper .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I found it as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They went for uh for a universal device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The touchscreen , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm breaking a world record here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . No it's your choice .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just pick one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This the bomb ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrong . Shit .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I knew it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Come on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that previous work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I challenge you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's stupid .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We'll see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't agree .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Too bad .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is a very interesting design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's just the same as normal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} a pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Then do it correctly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , blank .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the new one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh they just don't save it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , not everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pen , select select pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's uh very hard to draw .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fuck . F", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Warning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're correct .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay this is a hard one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No more chit-chat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you gotta finish", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Che-che-che-che .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "over there ? In your own room ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" } ]

[ { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not saved yet .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Our beautiful drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think that's better .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Together ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll give comments .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Means {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You wrote this , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's uh twelve buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} just so you get that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you pre Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To your video device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is i Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh if you s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um slides I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "From from the uh beneath ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For the bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , you gotta slide it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do we need ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Menu ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "God damn it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scart ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Extern or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't really matter .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh menu .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , to navigate .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The menu button , yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can put those here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So did we miss anything ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh wh Here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Did you think of that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh why not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "through view .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Just remember where it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's to remember .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Th i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's what the television does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , those memory functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . No no", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think just on the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think the space is worth it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Look-and-feel ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um {vocalsound} model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Flashy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um basic colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um company colours ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yellow light .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A bit a bit of yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black white , maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One more thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide panel ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , not needed I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That as well , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay . It's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but you don't have to use that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y just uh f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because there are so so n", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think it a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so just give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm uh . The normal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep , true . Then a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's not new .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that new ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The lighting's new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech is new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then we also have the the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We don't", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Home-station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "recharge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But that's more like uh now .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh untitled ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , just so it's still a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm two , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Th that's my question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think that's a two or a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you get different colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we give ourself a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's eleven .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What's the average ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Eleven divided by six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To call .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Call {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I did save it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So that's both .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four . It's four Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's included .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or a different style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's creativity .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Of course there was .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do you have to say about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "one leader or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So more like a secretary .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We're not finished .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , th that's weird .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We had to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , finance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But the teamwork was okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just doesn't work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just not work too slow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Precise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not just pointing out on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "like {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Digital pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We did it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "In the budget , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New ideas found .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For for for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So are we finished ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Quite early .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Let's play minesweeper .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I found it as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They went for uh for a universal device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The touchscreen , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm breaking a world record here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . No it's your choice .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just pick one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This the bomb ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrong . Shit .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I knew it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Come on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that previous work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I challenge you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's stupid .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We'll see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't agree .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Too bad .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is a very interesting design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's just the same as normal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} a pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Then do it correctly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , blank .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the new one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh they just don't save it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , not everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pen , select select pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's uh very hard to draw .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fuck . F", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Warning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're correct .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay this is a hard one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No more chit-chat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you gotta finish", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Che-che-che-che .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "over there ? In your own room ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" } ]

[ { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not saved yet .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Our beautiful drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think that's better .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Together ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll give comments .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Means {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You wrote this , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's uh twelve buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} just so you get that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you pre Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To your video device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is i Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh if you s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um slides I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "From from the uh beneath ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For the bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , you gotta slide it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do we need ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Menu ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "God damn it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scart ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Extern or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't really matter .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh menu .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , to navigate .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The menu button , yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can put those here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So did we miss anything ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh wh Here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Did you think of that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh why not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "through view .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Just remember where it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's to remember .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Th i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's what the television does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , those memory functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . No no", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think just on the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think the space is worth it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Look-and-feel ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um {vocalsound} model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Flashy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um basic colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um company colours ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yellow light .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A bit a bit of yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black white , maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One more thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide panel ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , not needed I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That as well , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay . It's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but you don't have to use that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y just uh f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because there are so so n", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think it a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so just give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm uh . The normal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep , true . Then a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's not new .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that new ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The lighting's new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech is new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then we also have the the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We don't", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Home-station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "recharge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But that's more like uh now .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh untitled ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , just so it's still a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm two , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Th that's my question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think that's a two or a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you get different colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we give ourself a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's eleven .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What's the average ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Eleven divided by six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To call .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Call {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I did save it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So that's both .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four . It's four Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's included .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or a different style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's creativity .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Of course there was .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do you have to say about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "one leader or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So more like a secretary .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We're not finished .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , th that's weird .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We had to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , finance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But the teamwork was okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just doesn't work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just not work too slow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Precise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not just pointing out on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "like {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Digital pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We did it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "In the budget , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New ideas found .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For for for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So are we finished ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Quite early .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Let's play minesweeper .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I found it as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They went for uh for a universal device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The touchscreen , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm breaking a world record here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . No it's your choice .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just pick one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This the bomb ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrong . Shit .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I knew it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Come on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that previous work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I challenge you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's stupid .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We'll see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't agree .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Too bad .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is a very interesting design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's just the same as normal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} a pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Then do it correctly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , blank .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the new one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh they just don't save it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , not everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pen , select select pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's uh very hard to draw .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fuck . F", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Warning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're correct .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay this is a hard one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No more chit-chat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you gotta finish", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Che-che-che-che .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "over there ? In your own room ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" } ]

[ { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not saved yet .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Our beautiful drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think that's better .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Together ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll give comments .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Means {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You wrote this , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's uh twelve buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} just so you get that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you pre Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To your video device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is i Ah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh if you s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um slides I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "From from the uh beneath ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For the bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , you gotta slide it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what do we need ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Menu ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "God damn it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scart ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Extern or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't really matter .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know the functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What else ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh menu .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , to navigate .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The menu button , yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can put those here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So did we miss anything ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh wh Here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Did you think of that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh why not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "through view .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Just remember where it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , that's to remember .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Th i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that's what the television does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , those memory functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's fine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . No no", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think just on the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think the space is worth it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Look-and-feel ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um {vocalsound} model .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Flashy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The LEDs .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um basic colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um company colours ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yellow light .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A bit a bit of yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black white , maybe ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One more thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Slide panel ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , not needed I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That as well , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay . It's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but you don't have to use that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y just uh f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because there are so so n", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think it a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so just give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm uh . The normal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep , true . Then a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's not new .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that new ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The lighting's new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Speech is new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then we also have the the home station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We don't", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Home-station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "recharge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But that's more like uh now .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh untitled ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , just so it's still a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm two , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Th that's my question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think that's a two or a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you get different colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we give ourself a three or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's eleven .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What's the average ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Eleven divided by six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To call .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Call {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I did save it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So that's both .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four . It's four Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's included .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or a different style .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's creativity .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Of course there was .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What do you have to say about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "one leader or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So more like a secretary .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We're not finished .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , th that's weird .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We had to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm hmm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , finance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But the teamwork was okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just doesn't work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just not work too slow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Precise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not just pointing out on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "like {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Digital pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We did it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "In the budget , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "New ideas found .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For for for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control probably .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So are we finished ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Quite early .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Let's play minesweeper .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I found it as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that was it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They went for uh for a universal device .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The touchscreen , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm breaking a world record here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . No it's your choice .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just pick one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This the bomb ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrong . Shit .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I knew it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Come on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that previous work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I challenge you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's stupid .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We'll see .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't agree .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Too bad .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is a very interesting design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's just the same as normal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} a pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Then do it correctly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , blank .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no , the new one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh they just don't save it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , not everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pen , select select pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's uh very hard to draw .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fuck . F", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Warning . Warning .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're correct .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay this is a hard one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No more chit-chat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you gotta finish", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Che-che-che-che .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "over there ? In your own room ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" } ]

[ { "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that someone's ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} three , apparently .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , you all switched on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep , me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that would be you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Whoa .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It looks", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Going a bit crazy over here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "crazy {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um not now . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ta-da .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm 'kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . So it's flush .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so so it'll fully close flat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm under the sofa .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah oka", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or , that would be too complicated .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would make sense .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} This one right here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "once it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look up to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thank you very much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Certainly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So this is the one . Sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's to be presented {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There you go . {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Evaluation . {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah , it's perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to look at these crite So", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That works .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just go this way .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "two or three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , three . Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A four , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and three quarters ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'd give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The average {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "two point f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's just two point five for that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "f", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A two , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point seven f five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody ? Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's meant to be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's meant to . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe because it's slightl", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A five , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four and a four okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's four point two five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Voice r recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A standard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it would be quite loud .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it would be s p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You built into the feature .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and one , good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "how do we feel about this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We happy to go ahead ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's all . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thanks . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a regular chip on print", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip on print .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Double-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of c yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , would there be two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're double curved . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One double curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y Two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two curves , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So what's a single curve then ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-cu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic and rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And special colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we can put point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you think ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's including , it's including .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Push-button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has that not gone up ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that going to make a difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uncurved , flat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it just surprises one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's gone up again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , there we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If if you take away the voice ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where's the", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah i yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "where's the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You could choose to have that or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we're still working to um head o", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We c we could s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which is less than ten P_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is the first one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Twelve point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we are under the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well done , people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Seems fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we had a nice time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Find out from each other , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was the best part", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rather than {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Vegetables .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no . Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep , sorry ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "go on Sarah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the produ Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And new f television products coming up ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The the people have to keep buying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But forcing it onto people ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "See I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was just the the physical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe fifty percent more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that I think people are really gonna want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who knows ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it will .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There's a final questionnaire .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so good luck .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Awesome .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just got con", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that someone's ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} three , apparently .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , you all switched on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep , me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that would be you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Whoa .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It looks", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Going a bit crazy over here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "crazy {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um not now . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ta-da .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm 'kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . So it's flush .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so so it'll fully close flat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm under the sofa .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah oka", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or , that would be too complicated .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would make sense .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} This one right here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "once it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look up to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thank you very much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Certainly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So this is the one . Sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's to be presented {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There you go . {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Evaluation . {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah , it's perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to look at these crite So", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That works .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just go this way .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "two or three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , three . Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A four , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and three quarters ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'd give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The average {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "two point f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's just two point five for that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "f", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A two , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point seven f five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody ? Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's meant to be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's meant to . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe because it's slightl", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A five , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four and a four okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's four point two five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Voice r recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A standard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it would be quite loud .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it would be s p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You built into the feature .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and one , good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "how do we feel about this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We happy to go ahead ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's all . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thanks . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a regular chip on print", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip on print .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Double-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of c yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , would there be two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're double curved . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One double curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y Two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two curves , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So what's a single curve then ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-cu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic and rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And special colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we can put point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you think ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's including , it's including .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Push-button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has that not gone up ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that going to make a difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uncurved , flat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it just surprises one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's gone up again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , there we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If if you take away the voice ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where's the", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah i yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "where's the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You could choose to have that or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we're still working to um head o", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We c we could s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which is less than ten P_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is the first one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Twelve point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we are under the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well done , people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Seems fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we had a nice time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Find out from each other , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was the best part", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rather than {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Vegetables .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no . Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep , sorry ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "go on Sarah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the produ Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And new f television products coming up ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The the people have to keep buying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But forcing it onto people ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "See I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was just the the physical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe fifty percent more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that I think people are really gonna want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who knows ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it will .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There's a final questionnaire .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so good luck .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Awesome .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just got con", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that someone's ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} three , apparently .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , you all switched on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep , me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that would be you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Whoa .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It looks", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Going a bit crazy over here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "crazy {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um not now . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ta-da .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm 'kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . So it's flush .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so so it'll fully close flat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm under the sofa .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah oka", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or , that would be too complicated .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would make sense .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} This one right here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "once it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look up to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thank you very much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Certainly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So this is the one . Sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's to be presented {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There you go . {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Evaluation . {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah , it's perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to look at these crite So", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That works .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just go this way .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "two or three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , three . Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A four , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and three quarters ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'd give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The average {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "two point f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's just two point five for that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "f", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A two , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point seven f five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody ? Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's meant to be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's meant to . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe because it's slightl", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A five , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four and a four okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's four point two five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Voice r recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A standard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it would be quite loud .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it would be s p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You built into the feature .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and one , good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "how do we feel about this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We happy to go ahead ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's all . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thanks . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a regular chip on print", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip on print .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Double-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of c yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , would there be two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're double curved . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One double curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y Two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two curves , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So what's a single curve then ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-cu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic and rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And special colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we can put point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you think ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's including , it's including .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Push-button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has that not gone up ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that going to make a difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uncurved , flat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it just surprises one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's gone up again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , there we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If if you take away the voice ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where's the", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah i yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "where's the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You could choose to have that or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we're still working to um head o", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We c we could s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which is less than ten P_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is the first one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Twelve point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we are under the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well done , people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Seems fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we had a nice time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Find out from each other , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was the best part", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rather than {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Vegetables .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no . Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep , sorry ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "go on Sarah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the produ Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And new f television products coming up ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The the people have to keep buying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But forcing it onto people ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "See I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was just the the physical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe fifty percent more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that I think people are really gonna want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who knows ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it will .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There's a final questionnaire .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so good luck .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Awesome .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just got con", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that someone's ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} three , apparently .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , you all switched on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep , me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that would be you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Whoa .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It looks", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Going a bit crazy over here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "crazy {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um not now . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ta-da .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm 'kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . So it's flush .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so so it'll fully close flat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm under the sofa .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah oka", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or , that would be too complicated .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would make sense .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} This one right here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "once it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look up to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thank you very much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Certainly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So this is the one . Sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's to be presented {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There you go . {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Evaluation . {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah , it's perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to look at these crite So", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That works .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just go this way .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "two or three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , three . Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A four , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and three quarters ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'd give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The average {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "two point f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's just two point five for that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "f", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A two , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point seven f five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody ? Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's meant to be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's meant to . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe because it's slightl", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A five , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four and a four okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's four point two five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Voice r recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A standard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it would be quite loud .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it would be s p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You built into the feature .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and one , good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "how do we feel about this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We happy to go ahead ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's all . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thanks . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a regular chip on print", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip on print .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Double-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of c yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , would there be two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're double curved . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One double curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y Two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two curves , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So what's a single curve then ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-cu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic and rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And special colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we can put point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you think ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's including , it's including .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Push-button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has that not gone up ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that going to make a difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uncurved , flat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it just surprises one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's gone up again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , there we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If if you take away the voice ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where's the", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah i yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "where's the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You could choose to have that or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we're still working to um head o", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We c we could s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which is less than ten P_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is the first one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Twelve point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we are under the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well done , people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Seems fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we had a nice time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Find out from each other , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was the best part", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rather than {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Vegetables .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no . Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep , sorry ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "go on Sarah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the produ Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And new f television products coming up ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The the people have to keep buying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But forcing it onto people ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "See I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was just the the physical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe fifty percent more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that I think people are really gonna want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who knows ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it will .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There's a final questionnaire .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so good luck .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Awesome .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just got con", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that someone's ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} three , apparently .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , you all switched on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep , me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that would be you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Whoa .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It looks", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Going a bit crazy over here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "crazy {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um not now . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ta-da .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm 'kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . So it's flush .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so so it'll fully close flat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm under the sofa .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah oka", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or , that would be too complicated .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would make sense .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} This one right here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "once it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look up to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thank you very much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Certainly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So this is the one . Sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's to be presented {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There you go . {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Evaluation . {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah , it's perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to look at these crite So", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That works .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just go this way .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "two or three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , three . Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A four , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and three quarters ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'd give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The average {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "two point f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's just two point five for that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "f", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A two , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point seven f five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody ? Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's meant to be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's meant to . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe because it's slightl", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A five , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four and a four okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's four point two five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Voice r recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A standard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it would be quite loud .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it would be s p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You built into the feature .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and one , good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "how do we feel about this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We happy to go ahead ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's all . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thanks . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a regular chip on print", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip on print .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Double-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of c yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , would there be two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're double curved . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One double curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y Two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two curves , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So what's a single curve then ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-cu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic and rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And special colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we can put point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you think ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's including , it's including .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Push-button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has that not gone up ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that going to make a difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uncurved , flat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it just surprises one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's gone up again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , there we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If if you take away the voice ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where's the", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah i yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "where's the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You could choose to have that or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we're still working to um head o", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We c we could s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which is less than ten P_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is the first one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Twelve point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we are under the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well done , people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Seems fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we had a nice time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Find out from each other , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was the best part", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rather than {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Vegetables .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no . Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep , sorry ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "go on Sarah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the produ Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And new f television products coming up ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The the people have to keep buying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But forcing it onto people ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "See I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was just the the physical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe fifty percent more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that I think people are really gonna want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who knows ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it will .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There's a final questionnaire .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so good luck .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Awesome .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just got con", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that someone's ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} three , apparently .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , you all switched on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep , me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that would be you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Whoa .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It looks", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Going a bit crazy over here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "crazy {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um not now . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ta-da .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm 'kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . So it's flush .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so so it'll fully close flat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm under the sofa .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah oka", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or , that would be too complicated .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would make sense .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} This one right here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "once it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look up to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thank you very much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Certainly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So this is the one . Sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's to be presented {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There you go . {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Evaluation . {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah , it's perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to look at these crite So", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That works .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just go this way .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "two or three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , three . Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A four , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and three quarters ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'd give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The average {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "two point f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's just two point five for that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "f", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A two , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point seven f five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody ? Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's meant to be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's meant to . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe because it's slightl", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A five , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four and a four okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's four point two five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Voice r recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A standard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it would be quite loud .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it would be s p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You built into the feature .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and one , good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "how do we feel about this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We happy to go ahead ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's all . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thanks . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a regular chip on print", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip on print .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Double-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of c yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , would there be two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're double curved . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One double curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y Two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two curves , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So what's a single curve then ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-cu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic and rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And special colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we can put point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you think ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's including , it's including .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Push-button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has that not gone up ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that going to make a difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uncurved , flat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it just surprises one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's gone up again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , there we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If if you take away the voice ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where's the", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah i yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "where's the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You could choose to have that or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we're still working to um head o", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We c we could s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which is less than ten P_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is the first one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Twelve point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we are under the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well done , people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Seems fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we had a nice time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Find out from each other , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was the best part", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rather than {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Vegetables .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no . Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep , sorry ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "go on Sarah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the produ Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And new f television products coming up ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The the people have to keep buying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But forcing it onto people ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "See I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was just the the physical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe fifty percent more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that I think people are really gonna want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who knows ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it will .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There's a final questionnaire .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so good luck .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Awesome .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just got con", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that someone's ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} three , apparently .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , you all switched on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep , me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that would be you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Whoa .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It looks", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Going a bit crazy over here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "crazy {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um not now . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ta-da .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm 'kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . So it's flush .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so so it'll fully close flat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm under the sofa .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah oka", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or , that would be too complicated .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would make sense .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} This one right here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "once it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look up to it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thank you very much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Certainly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So this is the one . Sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's to be presented {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There you go . {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Evaluation . {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah , it's perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to look at these crite So", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That works .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just go this way .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "two or three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , three . Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A four , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and three quarters ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'd give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The average {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "two point f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's just two point five for that one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "f", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A two , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point seven f five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody ? Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's meant to be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's meant to . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe because it's slightl", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A five , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four and a four okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's four point two five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Voice r recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A standard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it would be quite loud .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it would be s p", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You built into the feature .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and one , good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "how do we feel about this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We happy to go ahead ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's all . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thanks . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a regular chip on print", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip on print .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Double-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of c yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Thanks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , would there be two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're double curved . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One double curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y Two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two curves , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'cause it's two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So what's a single curve then ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Single-cu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic and rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a plastic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And special colour .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we can put point five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you think ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's including , it's including .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Push-button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "An One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has that not gone up ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that going to make a difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uncurved , flat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it just surprises one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's gone up again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , there we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If if you take away the voice ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where's the", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah i yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "where's the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You could choose to have that or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we're still working to um head o", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We c we could s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which is less than ten P_ .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is the first one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Twelve point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we are under the budget .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well done , people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Seems fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we had a nice time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Find out from each other , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was the best part", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rather than {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Vegetables .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , no . Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep , sorry ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "go on Sarah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the produ Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And new f television products coming up ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The the people have to keep buying .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But forcing it onto people ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "See I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think that was just the the physical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe fifty percent more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that I think people are really gonna want .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Who knows ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it will .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "There's a final questionnaire .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so good luck .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Awesome .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the s", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just got con", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Of course, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I would say the majority have.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What is your experience, then?", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Sian Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It sounds to me very—. Yes, good—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of—? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with—. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport—it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings—. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And which authority is that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Oxfordshire.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority—they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'—not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility—that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Nick, you wanted to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve—the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that—and it's back to your original question, the first question—we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Capacity—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "The schools would have to make sure that—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But is that happening, do you know?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "We're very similar to that.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's, you know—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "And does that worry you?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Me?", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "The WLGA.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, we are—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "In the PRUs?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "With the curriculum?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And—. Sorry, go on.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Siân, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, certainly.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I don't know if that is the—.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.", "speaker": "Sharon Davies" }, { "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "What provision in the north?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "North Powys.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.", "speaker": "Nick Williams" }, { "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.", "speaker": "David Hopkins" }, { "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think you were going to—.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be—. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's—. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with—. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded—I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we—. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU, EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about—I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's—. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people—and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way—but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person—. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual—that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard—. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide—it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be—there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding—. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because—. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis—. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men—. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture—", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs—this is a chance to make that ambition real.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you so much. Very good.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Dawn.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just—or your own research. What—?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases—quite substantial increases in some cases—regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in—I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project—was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of—again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you—evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child—and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level—1.5 per cent to 2 per cent—in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much—because we're in discussion about school accountability—might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue—that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps—where they're not held within their society—to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time—. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that—well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that—and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Siân Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself—and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues—shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay. Any other questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up—?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers—? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem—I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Liz Williams" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Sarah Stone" }, { "content": "Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson" }, { "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let me see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's one of mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello , Flores .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There he is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh no . You can't ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So just cancel it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we will see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it's wireless here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , great .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Time , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll start .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , user-friendly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the market , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not visible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's fairly easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can we can make its I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and not for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's definitely interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sound signal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "go on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh that's about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Reports rep respend response to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , so we we should use something else .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And b", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so we don't want that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you lost th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's not a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . I will .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um and it will become more costly also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What should we choose in in design ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the extra functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Used option .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , we skip that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nope .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's out of the question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'cause young people uh like new features .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can break down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But you're the marketing man .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Change .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Dual channel watch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mielsen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , that's important .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , are are you sure ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not so sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , that's complicated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you're probably right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Exactly , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , speech .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , g good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to do nothing for it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They're very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Profitable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the other way around , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're done , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How nice .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Me neither .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that's what we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any other questions", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or can we have the lunch ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can have the lunch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll take the lunch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let me see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's one of mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello , Flores .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There he is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh no . You can't ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So just cancel it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we will see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it's wireless here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , great .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Time , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll start .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , user-friendly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the market , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not visible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's fairly easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can we can make its I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and not for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's definitely interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sound signal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "go on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh that's about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Reports rep respend response to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , so we we should use something else .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And b", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so we don't want that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you lost th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's not a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . I will .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um and it will become more costly also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What should we choose in in design ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the extra functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Used option .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , we skip that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nope .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's out of the question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'cause young people uh like new features .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can break down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But you're the marketing man .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Change .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Dual channel watch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mielsen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , that's important .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , are are you sure ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not so sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , that's complicated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you're probably right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Exactly , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , speech .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , g good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to do nothing for it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They're very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Profitable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the other way around , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're done , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How nice .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Me neither .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that's what we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any other questions", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or can we have the lunch ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can have the lunch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll take the lunch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let me see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's one of mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello , Flores .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There he is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh no . You can't ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So just cancel it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we will see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it's wireless here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , great .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Time , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll start .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , user-friendly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the market , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not visible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's fairly easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can we can make its I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and not for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's definitely interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sound signal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "go on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh that's about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Reports rep respend response to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , so we we should use something else .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And b", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so we don't want that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you lost th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's not a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . I will .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um and it will become more costly also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What should we choose in in design ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the extra functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Used option .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , we skip that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nope .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's out of the question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'cause young people uh like new features .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can break down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But you're the marketing man .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Change .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Dual channel watch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mielsen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , that's important .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , are are you sure ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not so sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , that's complicated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you're probably right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Exactly , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , speech .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , g good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to do nothing for it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They're very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Profitable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the other way around , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're done , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How nice .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Me neither .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that's what we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any other questions", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or can we have the lunch ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can have the lunch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll take the lunch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let me see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's one of mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello , Flores .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There he is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh no . You can't ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So just cancel it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we will see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it's wireless here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , great .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Time , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll start .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , user-friendly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the market , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not visible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's fairly easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can we can make its I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and not for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's definitely interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sound signal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "go on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh that's about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Reports rep respend response to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , so we we should use something else .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And b", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so we don't want that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you lost th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's not a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . I will .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um and it will become more costly also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What should we choose in in design ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the extra functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Used option .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , we skip that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nope .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's out of the question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'cause young people uh like new features .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can break down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But you're the marketing man .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Change .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Dual channel watch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mielsen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , that's important .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , are are you sure ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not so sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , that's complicated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you're probably right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Exactly , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , speech .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , g good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to do nothing for it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They're very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Profitable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the other way around , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're done , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How nice .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Me neither .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that's what we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any other questions", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or can we have the lunch ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can have the lunch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll take the lunch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let me see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's one of mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello , Flores .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There he is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh no . You can't ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So just cancel it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we will see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it's wireless here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , great .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Time , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll start .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , user-friendly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the market , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not visible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's fairly easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can we can make its I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and not for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's definitely interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sound signal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "go on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh that's about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Reports rep respend response to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , so we we should use something else .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And b", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so we don't want that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you lost th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's not a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . I will .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um and it will become more costly also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What should we choose in in design ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the extra functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Used option .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , we skip that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nope .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's out of the question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'cause young people uh like new features .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can break down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But you're the marketing man .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Change .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Dual channel watch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mielsen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , that's important .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , are are you sure ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not so sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , that's complicated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you're probably right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Exactly , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , speech .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , g good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to do nothing for it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They're very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Profitable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the other way around , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're done , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How nice .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Me neither .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that's what we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any other questions", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or can we have the lunch ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can have the lunch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll take the lunch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let me see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's one of mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello , Flores .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There he is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh no . You can't ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So just cancel it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we will see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it's wireless here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , great .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Time , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll start .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , user-friendly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the market , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not visible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's fairly easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can we can make its I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and not for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's definitely interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sound signal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "go on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh that's about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Reports rep respend response to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , so we we should use something else .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And b", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so we don't want that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you lost th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's not a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . I will .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um and it will become more costly also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What should we choose in in design ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the extra functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Used option .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , we skip that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nope .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's out of the question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'cause young people uh like new features .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can break down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But you're the marketing man .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Change .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Dual channel watch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mielsen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , that's important .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , are are you sure ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not so sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , that's complicated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you're probably right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Exactly , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , speech .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , g good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to do nothing for it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They're very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Profitable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the other way around , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're done , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How nice .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Me neither .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that's what we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any other questions", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or can we have the lunch ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can have the lunch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll take the lunch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh let me see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's one of mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello , Flores .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There he is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh no . You can't ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So just cancel it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Almost , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , w we will see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it's wireless here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It is .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , great .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Time , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll start .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , user-friendly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "In the market , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not visible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's fairly easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We can we can make its I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and not for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's definitely interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sound signal .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "go on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh that's about it , yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Reports rep respend response to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , so we we should use something else .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And b", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so we don't want that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well if you lost th", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's not a good idea .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . I will .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "um and it will become more costly also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What should we choose in in design ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the extra functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Used option .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , we skip that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nope .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's out of the question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'cause young people uh like new features .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can break down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But you're the marketing man .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Change .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Dual channel watch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mielsen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , that's important .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , are are you sure ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not so sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , that's complicated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Often .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you're probably right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On the design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Exactly , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , speech .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , g good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to do nothing for it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They're very cheap .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Profitable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Great .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The board .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The circuit board .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the other way around , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're done , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How nice .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Me neither .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think that's what we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Adapt .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Left .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and um so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any other questions", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or can we have the lunch ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We can have the lunch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll take the lunch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's been a l", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't design that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Tada .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think that's alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've got a presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's called evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's under evaluation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "True's one and false is seven .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if if that's what people wanna do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's actually a scale .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One , right okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are we just about ready ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Our animals will forever be there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . One ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought she said five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Wait a minute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I thought it was the other way round too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I should've kept the table up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Say two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I meant one on mine too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point one . I have four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh . One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Four point two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two and four point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One , two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right so I put one on that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that was material .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The shape .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Four point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The flat one . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the broccoli would be out .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . That looked really good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . That could work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So like maybe that's just too big", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dif", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We could tr I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's alright yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I did .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you were fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You did a good job leading .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no I never touch Macs either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I never use it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So like a f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it depends on the role", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "As if you'd wanted to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "System . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a whole system ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems planned you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It asks about that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're pretty cool .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wanna s", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even so , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And new ideas found ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "no ? It's all very new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems like way overkill .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that the end ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Stuff stuff stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All of us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know . Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well there's al eight , nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's been a l", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't design that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Tada .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think that's alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've got a presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's called evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's under evaluation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "True's one and false is seven .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if if that's what people wanna do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's actually a scale .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One , right okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are we just about ready ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Our animals will forever be there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . One ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought she said five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Wait a minute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I thought it was the other way round too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I should've kept the table up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Say two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I meant one on mine too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point one . I have four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh . One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Four point two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two and four point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One , two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right so I put one on that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that was material .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The shape .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Four point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The flat one . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the broccoli would be out .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . That looked really good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . That could work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So like maybe that's just too big", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dif", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We could tr I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's alright yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I did .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you were fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You did a good job leading .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no I never touch Macs either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I never use it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So like a f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it depends on the role", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "As if you'd wanted to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "System . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a whole system ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems planned you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It asks about that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're pretty cool .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wanna s", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even so , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And new ideas found ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "no ? It's all very new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems like way overkill .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that the end ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Stuff stuff stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All of us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know . Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well there's al eight , nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's been a l", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't design that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Tada .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think that's alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've got a presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's called evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's under evaluation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "True's one and false is seven .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if if that's what people wanna do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's actually a scale .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One , right okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are we just about ready ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Our animals will forever be there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . One ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought she said five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Wait a minute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I thought it was the other way round too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I should've kept the table up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Say two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I meant one on mine too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point one . I have four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh . One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Four point two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two and four point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One , two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right so I put one on that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that was material .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The shape .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Four point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The flat one . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the broccoli would be out .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . That looked really good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . That could work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So like maybe that's just too big", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dif", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We could tr I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's alright yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I did .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you were fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You did a good job leading .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no I never touch Macs either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I never use it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So like a f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it depends on the role", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "As if you'd wanted to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "System . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a whole system ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems planned you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It asks about that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're pretty cool .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wanna s", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even so , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And new ideas found ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "no ? It's all very new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems like way overkill .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that the end ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Stuff stuff stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All of us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know . Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well there's al eight , nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's been a l", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't design that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Tada .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think that's alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've got a presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's called evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's under evaluation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "True's one and false is seven .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if if that's what people wanna do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's actually a scale .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One , right okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are we just about ready ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Our animals will forever be there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . One ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought she said five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Wait a minute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I thought it was the other way round too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I should've kept the table up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Say two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I meant one on mine too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point one . I have four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh . One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Four point two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two and four point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One , two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right so I put one on that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that was material .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The shape .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Four point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The flat one . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the broccoli would be out .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . That looked really good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . That could work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So like maybe that's just too big", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dif", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We could tr I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's alright yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I did .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you were fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You did a good job leading .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no I never touch Macs either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I never use it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So like a f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it depends on the role", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "As if you'd wanted to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "System . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a whole system ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems planned you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It asks about that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're pretty cool .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wanna s", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even so , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And new ideas found ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "no ? It's all very new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems like way overkill .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that the end ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Stuff stuff stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All of us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know . Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well there's al eight , nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's been a l", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't design that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Tada .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think that's alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've got a presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's called evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's under evaluation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "True's one and false is seven .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if if that's what people wanna do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's actually a scale .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One , right okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are we just about ready ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Our animals will forever be there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . One ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought she said five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Wait a minute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I thought it was the other way round too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I should've kept the table up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Say two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I meant one on mine too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point one . I have four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh . One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Four point two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two and four point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One , two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right so I put one on that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that was material .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The shape .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Four point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The flat one . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the broccoli would be out .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . That looked really good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . That could work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So like maybe that's just too big", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dif", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We could tr I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's alright yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I did .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you were fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You did a good job leading .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no I never touch Macs either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I never use it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So like a f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it depends on the role", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "As if you'd wanted to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "System . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a whole system ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems planned you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It asks about that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're pretty cool .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wanna s", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even so , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And new ideas found ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "no ? It's all very new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems like way overkill .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that the end ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Stuff stuff stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All of us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know . Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well there's al eight , nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's been a l", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't design that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Tada .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think that's alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've got a presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's called evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's under evaluation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "True's one and false is seven .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if if that's what people wanna do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's actually a scale .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One , right okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are we just about ready ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Our animals will forever be there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . One ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought she said five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Wait a minute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I thought it was the other way round too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I should've kept the table up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Say two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I meant one on mine too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point one . I have four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh . One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Four point two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two and four point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One , two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right so I put one on that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that was material .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The shape .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Four point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The flat one . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the broccoli would be out .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . That looked really good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . That could work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So like maybe that's just too big", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dif", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We could tr I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's alright yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I did .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you were fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You did a good job leading .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no I never touch Macs either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I never use it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So like a f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it depends on the role", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "As if you'd wanted to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "System . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a whole system ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems planned you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It asks about that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're pretty cool .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wanna s", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even so , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And new ideas found ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "no ? It's all very new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems like way overkill .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that the end ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Stuff stuff stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All of us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know . Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well there's al eight , nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's been a l", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't design that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Tada .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I think that's alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've got a presentation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's called evaluation criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And it's under evaluation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "True's one and false is seven .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if if that's what people wanna do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's actually a scale .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One , right okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Are we just about ready ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Our animals will forever be there .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . One ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought she said five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Six .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Wait a minute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I thought it was the other way round too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I should've kept the table up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Say two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two and one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I meant one on mine too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point one . I have four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh . One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Four point one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two . Four point two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Three .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Two and four point three .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "One , two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right so I put one on that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that was material .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The shape .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Four point two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The flat one . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the broccoli would be out .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . That looked really good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . That could work .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So like maybe that's just too big", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dif", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We could tr I don't know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's alright yeah ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I did .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you were fine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You did a good job leading .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no I never touch Macs either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I never use it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So like a f", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it depends on the role", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "As if you'd wanted to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "System . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "a whole system ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems planned you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It asks about that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're pretty cool .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wanna s", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even so , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And new ideas found ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "no ? It's all very new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It seems like way overkill .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is that the end ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Stuff stuff stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Meeting adjourned .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All of us ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't know . Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well there's al eight , nine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Ah , so comfortable .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Smooth .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Good . I know that he 's going to like , Taiwan and other places to eat . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "On ? Am I on ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think I 'm on ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good . Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bye .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I just had one of the most frustrating meetings of my career .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's definitely not the most frustrating meeting I 've ever had .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You a You 're {disfmarker} you remember you 're being recorded at this point .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah , so , w we didn't yet specify with whom .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So that 's why Keith and I are going to be a little dazed for the first half m the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Huh . Yeah , I 'm just gonna sit here and", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I avoided that as long as I could for you guys ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "growl .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "For which we thank you , by the way .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Are very appreciative , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I know you were {disfmarker} you were doing that , but , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , how di how d exactly did , uh , that paper lead to anti - lock brakes ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , I could tell you had a rough day , man !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I love that story .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's a great story .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh my goodness .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , um , Liz suggested we could start off by uh , doing the digits all at the same time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "All at the same time . I don't know if {disfmarker} I would get distracted and confused , probably .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "e", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Really ? Do we have to like , synchronize ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , I think you 're supposed to {disfmarker} OK . We can do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Are you being silly ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh wait do we have t", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everybody 's got different digits ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , do we have to time them at the same time or just overlapping {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You 're kidding .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no , just {disfmarker} just start whenever you want .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And any rate ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "e yeah , the", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , they {disfmarker} they have s they have the close talking microphones for each of us ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , there 's separate channels .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So when I say", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just plug one ear .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You lose .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , bye ! That was a great meeting !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So - {vocalsound} Now , uh , why ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Just to save time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Does matter for them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are we gonna start all our meetings out that way from now on ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh . Too bad . I kinda like it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , could we ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's strangely satisfying .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a ritual .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Are we to r Just to make sure I know what 's going on , we 're talking about Robert 's thesis proposal today ? Is that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We could .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "true ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We are ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We might .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , you {disfmarker} you had s you said there were two things that you might wanna do . One was rehearse your i i talk {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh yes , and that too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} not rehearse , I mean , I have just not spent any time on it , so I can show you what I 've got , get your input on it , and maybe some suggestions , that would be great . And the same is true for the proposal . I will have time to do some revision and some additional stuff on various airplanes and trains . So , um . I don't know how much of a chance you had to actually read it", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I haven't looked at it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but you could always send me comments per electronic mail", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I will .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they will be incorporated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} It basically says , well \" this is construal \" , and then it continues to say that one could potentially build a probabilistic relational model that has some general , domain - general rules how things are construed , and then the idea is to use ontology , situation , user , and discourse model to instantiate elements in the classes of the probabilistic relational model {pause} to do some inferences in terms of what is being construed as what", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in our beloved tourism domain . But , with a focus on", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Can I s Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think I need a copy of this , yes .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , we can {disfmarker} we can {disfmarker} we can pass {disfmarker} pass my , uh {disfmarker} we can pass my extra copy around .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I is there an extra copy around ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh . He sent it . OK . You can keep it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Er , actually , my only copy , now that I think about it ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alrigh", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , I don't {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} I don't need it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but . I already read half of it , so it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um , actually this is the {disfmarker} the newest version after your comments ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , no I s I s I see this has got the castle in it , and stuff like that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe the version I didn't have that I {disfmarker} mine {disfmarker} the w did the one you sent on the email have the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That was the most recent one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Cuz I read halfway but I didn't see a castle thing .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm changing this . Just so you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um , if you would have checked your email you may have received a note from Yees asking you to send me the , uh , up - to - d", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . Oh , sorry . OK . Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "current formalism thing that you presented .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . I will . OK . OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But for this it doesn't matter . But , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We can talk about it later . That 's not even ready , so . Um , OK ! Go on t to , uh , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm making changes . \" Don't worry about that . \" OK . Mmm - mmm . Oh ! OK , sorry , go on .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And any type of comment whether it 's a spelling or a syntax or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "readability {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" . On page five .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Anyway . And y uh , email any time , but most usefully before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The twenty - first I 'm assuming .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The twenty - first ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Twenty - ninth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , this is the twenty - first .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What , today 's the twenty - first ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , better hurry up then !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh , man !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Before the twenty - ninth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The twenty - ninth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's when I 'm meeting with Wolfgang Wahlster to sell him this idea .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK ? Then I 'm also going to present a little talk at EML , about what we have done here and so of course , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm gonna start out with this slide , so the most relevant aspects of our stay here , and um , then I 'm asking them to imagine that they 're standing somewhere in Heidelberg and someone asks them in the morning {disfmarker} The Cave Forty - Five is a {disfmarker} is a well - known discotheque which is certainly not open at that {disfmarker} that time . And so", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "they 're supposed to imagine that , you know , do they think the person wants to go there , or just know where it is ? Uh , which is probably not , uh , the case in that discotheque example , or in the Bavaria example , you just want to know where it is . And so forth . So basically we can make a point that here is ontological knowledge but if it 's nine {disfmarker} nine PM in the evening then the discotheque question would be , for example , one that might ask for directions instead of just location . Um , {vocalsound} and so forth and so forth . That 's sort of motivating it . Then what have we done so far ? We had our little bit of , um , um , SmartKom stuff , that we did , um , everth", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you 've got the parser done . Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "That 's the {disfmarker} not the construction parser . That 's the , uh , tablet - based parser ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Easy parser .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and the generation outputter .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Halfway done ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You have to change those strategies ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? That 's , ten words ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , i it , you know . Maybe twelve .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Twelve ? OK . And , um , and Fey is doing the synthesis stuff as we speak . That 's all about that . Then I 'm going to talk about the data , you know these things about {disfmarker} uh , actually I have an example , probably . Two s Can you hear that ? Or should I turn the l volume on .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I could hear it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I I can hear it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I heard it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "They might not hear it in the {disfmarker} well maybe they will . I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "This was an actual , um , subject ? Ah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sounds like Fey .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But they 're {disfmarker} they 're mimicking the synthesis when they speak to the computer ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} you can observe that all the time , they 're trying to match their prosody onto the machine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh really . Interesting . Oh , it 's pretty slow .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Wh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The system breaking .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What is the s ? Oh !", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . And so forth and so forth . Um , I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing , and how we solved it , and some preliminary observations , also , um , I 'm not gonna put in the figures from Liz , but I thought it would interesting to , uh , um , point out that it 's basically the same . Um , as in every human - human telephone conversation , and the human - computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from , uh , some first , uh , observations . Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz , uh {disfmarker} how to get there , what actually is happening there today , and then maybe talk about the big picture here , e tell a little bit {disfmarker} as much as I {pause} can about the NTL story . I {disfmarker} I wa I do wanna , um {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure about this , whether I should put this in , um , that , you know , you have these two sort of different ideas that are {disfmarker} or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works , and then , {vocalsound} talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude , I 'll talk about monkeys in Italy . And , um , Srini was gonna send me some slides but he didn't do it , so from {disfmarker} but I have the paper , I can make a resume of that , and then I stole an X - schema from one of your talks I think .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . I was like , \" where 'd you get that ? \" OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that looks familiar .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "\" Looks familiar . \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think that 's Bergen , Chang , something , or the other .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , and that 's {disfmarker} now I 'm not going to bring that . So that 's basically what I have , so far , and the rest is for airplanes . So X - schemas , then , I would like to do {disfmarker} talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "End of story . Anything I forgot that we should mention ? Oh , maybe the FMRI stuff . Should I mention the fact that , um , we 're also actually started {disfmarker} going to start to look at people 's brains in a more direct way ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You certainly can . I mean I y I you know , I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You might just wanna like , tack that on , as a comment , to something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right , um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" Future activities \" something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , the time to mention it , if you mention it , is when you talk about mirror neurons , then you should talk about the more recent stuff , about the kicking", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and , you know , the {disfmarker} yeah , yeah {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} that the plan is to see to what extent the {disfmarker} you 'll get the same phenomena with stories about this , so that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and that we 're planning to do this , um , which , we are . So that 's one thing . Um . Depends . I mean , there is a , um , whole language learning story , OK ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "which , uh , actually , i i even on your five - layer slide , you {disfmarker} you 've got an old one that {disfmarker} that leaves that off .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do have it here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um . And , of course , you know , the {disfmarker} the big picture is this bit .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But , you know , it would {disfmarker} But I don't think I {disfmarker} I am capable of {disfmarker} of do pulling this off and doing justice to the matter . I mean , there is interesting stuff in her terms of how language works , so the emergentism story would be nice to be {disfmarker} you know , it would be nice to tell people how {disfmarker} what 's happening there , plus how the , uh , language learning stuff works ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so , so anyway , I {disfmarker} I agree that 's not central .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What you might wanna do is , um , and may not , but you might wanna {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} rip off a bunch of the slides on the anal there {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} we 've got various i generations of slides that show language analysis , and matching to the underlying image schemas , and , um , how the construction and simulation {disfmarker} that ho that whole th", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , th that {disfmarker} that 's c that comes up to the X - schema slide ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so basically I 'm gonna steal that from Nancy ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , I can give you a more recent {disfmarker} if you want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "one of Nancy 's st", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "well , that might have enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , I {disfmarker} yeah , but I also have stuff you {disfmarker} trash you left over ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "your quals and your triple - AI .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The quals w the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quals slides would be fine .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could get it out of there , or some", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Which I can even email you then , you know , like there probably was a little {disfmarker} few changes , not a big deal . Yeah , you could steal anything you want , I don't care . Which you 've already done , obviously . So . Sorry", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't feel bad about it at all", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , you shouldn't .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because you are on the , uh , title .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's great , that 's great .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean on the {disfmarker} the , you 're {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} see , that 's you .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to see propagation .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Propagated ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean I might even mention that this work you 're doing is sort of also with the MPI in Leipzig , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's certainly related , um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because , um , EML is building up a huge thing in Leipzig .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "might wanna say . Is it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} It 's on biocomputation . Would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's different , this is the , uh , DNA building , or someth the double helix building .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Kind of a different level of analysis .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} yeah it was {disfmarker} it turns out that if {disfmarker} if you have multiple billions of dollars , y you can do all sorts of weird things , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Wait , they 're building a building in the shape of DNA ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "is that what you said ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Roughly , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh ! Oh boy !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "O", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Including cr cross - bridges ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh my god !", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's brilliant ! Hhh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You d you really {disfmarker} now I I spent {disfmarker} the last time I was there I spent maybe two hours hearing this story which is , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Of what", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Y You definitely wanna w don't wanna waste that money on research ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "the building ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's horrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Well , no , no , y i there 's infinite money . See you th you th you then fill it with researchers .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And give them more money . They just want a fun place for them to {disfmarker} to work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And everybody gets a trampoline in their office .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , the {disfmarker} the offices are actually a little {disfmarker} the , think of um , ramps , coming out of the double helix and then you have these half - domes , glass half - domes , and the offices are in {disfmarker} in the glass half - dome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright , let 's stop talking about this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Does it exist yet ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "They are w now building it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , as a model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I th", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , yeah , I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good point , th th that the date , the , uh , a lot of the {disfmarker} this is interacting with , uh , people in Italy but also definitely the people in Leipzig and the {disfmarker} the b the combination of the biology and the Leipzig connection might be interesting to these guys , yeah . OK . OK . Anyway ! Enough of that , let 's talk about your thesis proposal .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , if somebody has something to say .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You might want to , uh , double - check the spellings of the authors ' names on your references , you had a few , uh , misspells in your slides , there . Like I believe you had \" Jackendorf \" .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , unless there 's a person called \" Jackendorf \" ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "On that one ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no , no .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "yeah . But that 's the only thing I noticed in there .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "In the presentation ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "In the presentation .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I 'll probably {disfmarker} I c might have {disfmarker} I 'll probably have comments for you separately , not important . Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , in the presentation here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what he was talking about .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I was ac actually worried about bibtex . Uh . No , that 's quite possible . That 's copy and paste from something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So I did note i i it looks like the , uh , metaphor didn't get in yet .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , it did , there is a reference to Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , s reference is one thing , the question is is there any place {disfmarker} Oh , did you put in something about ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Metonymy and metaphor here , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , the individual , we 'd talked about putting in something about people had , uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah , OK . Good . I see where you have it . So the top of the second {disfmarker} of pa page two you have a sentence .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But , what I meant is , I think even before you give this , to Wahlster , uh , you should , unless you put it in the text , and I don't think it 's there yet , about {disfmarker} we talked about is the , um , scalability that you get by , um , combining the constructions with the general construal mechanism . Is that in there ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , mmm . Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , so where {disfmarker} where is it , cuz I 'll have to take a look .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , but I {disfmarker} I did not focus on that aspect but , um {disfmarker} Ehhh , um , it 's just underneath , uh , um , that reference to metaphor . So it 's the last paragraph before two . So on page two , um , the main focus {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But that 's really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's not about that , is it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it s says it but it doesn't say {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker} it d it d", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Why .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , it doesn't give the punch line .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz let me tell the gang what I think the punch line is , because it 's actually important , which is , that , the constructions , that , uh , Nancy and Keith and friends are doing , uh , are , in a way , quite general but cover only base cases . And to make them apply to metaphorical cases and metonymic cases and all those things , requires this additional mechanism , of construal . And the punch line is , he claimed , that if you do this right , you can get essentially orthogonality , that if you introduce a new construction at {disfmarker} at the base level , it should com uh , interact with all the metonymies and metaphors so that all of the projections of it also should work .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "And , similarly , if you introduce a new metaphor , it should then uh , compose with all of the constructions .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} to the extent that that 's true then {disfmarker} then it 's a big win over anything that exists .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So does that mean instead of having tons and tons of rules in your context - free grammar you just have these base constructs and then a general mechanism for coercing them .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So that , you know , for example , uh , in the metaphor case , that you have a kind of direct idea of a source , path , and goal and any metaphorical one {disfmarker} and abstract goals and all that sort of stuff {comment} {disfmarker} you can do the same grammar .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And it is the same grammar . But , um , the trick is that the {disfmarker} the way the construction 's written it requires that the object of the preposition for example be a container . Well , \" trouble \" isn't a container , but it gets constr construed as a c container .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Et cetera . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's where this , um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So with construal you don't have to have a construction for every possible thing that can fill the rule .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So 's it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a very big deal , i i in this framework , and the thesis proposal as it stands doesn't , um , I don't think , say that as clearly as it could .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No , it doesn't say it at all . No . Even though {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One could argue what {disfmarker} if there are basic cases , even . I mean , it seems like nothing is context - free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , nothing is context - free , but there are basic cases . That is , um , there are physical containers , there are physical paths , there {disfmarker} you know , et cetera .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But \" walked into the cafe and ordered a drink , \" and \" walked into the cafe and broke his nose , \" that 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , it doesn't mean that they 're unambiguous .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , a cafe can be construed as a container , or it can be construed you know as {disfmarker} as a obstacle ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "or as some physical object . So there are multiple construals . And in fact that 's part of what has to be done . This is why there 's this interaction between the analysis and the construal .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The b the {disfmarker} the double arrow .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , uh , yeah , I mean , it doesn't magically make ambiguity go away .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it does say that , uh , if you walked into the cafe and broke your nose , then you are construing the cafe as an obstacle .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if that 's not consistent with other things , then you 've gotta reject that reading .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You con {disfmarker} you conditioned me with your first sentence , and so I thought , \" Why would he walk into the cafe and then somehow break his nose ? \" uh , oh , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "He slipped on the wet floor .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You don't find that usage , uh {disfmarker} uh , I checked for it in the Brown national corpus .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The \" walk into it \" never really means , w as in walked smack {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But \" run into \" does .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but , y y if you find \" walked smacked into the cafe \" or \" slammed into the wall \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , but \" run into \" does .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Because you will find \" run into , \" uh ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Cars run into telephone poles all the time .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well , or \" into the cafe \" for that m", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "you know {disfmarker} \" His car ran into the cafe . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or you can run into an old friend , or run .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , you can \" run into \" in that sense too .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , \" run into \" might even be more impact sense than , you know , container sense .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But , uh , Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Depends .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Like , \" run into an old friend \" , it probably needs its own construction . I mean , uh , you know , George would have I 'm sure some exa complicated ex reason why it really was an instance of something else", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and maybe it is , but , um , there are idioms and my guess is that 's one of them , but , um {disfmarker} I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "All contact . I mean , there there 's contact that doesn't {disfmarker} social contact , whatever . I mean .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sudden surprising contact ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Right . i Yeah , it 's more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Forceful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But of course , no , i i I mean it has a life of its own . It 's sort of partially inspired by the spatial {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , this is this motivated {disfmarker} but yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "oh yeah , mo for sure , motivated , but then you can't parse on motivated .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Too bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You should get a T - shirt that says that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there 's lots of things you could make T - shirts out of , but , uh , this has gotten {disfmarker} I mean wh We don't need the words to that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Pro - probably not your marks in the kitchen , today .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What ? Oh , no no no no no no no no no , we 're not going there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} not your marks .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so , um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "In other news .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "anything else you want to ask us about the thesis proposal , you got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could look at a particular thing and give you feedback on it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} actually {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i what would have been really nice is to find an example for all of this , uh , from our domain . So maybe if we w if we can make one up {pause} now , that would be c incredibly helpful .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , w where it should illustrate", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} wh when you say all this , do you mean , like , I don't know , the related work stuff ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "How {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "as well as , mappings ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "w Well we have , for example , a canonical use of something", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right {disfmarker} right {disfmarker} r", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and y it 's , you know , we have some constructions and then it 's construed as something , and then we {disfmarker} we may get the same constructions with a metaphorical use that 's also relevant to the {disfmarker} to the domain .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , f let 's {disfmarker} let 's suppose you use \" in \" and \" on \" . I mean , that 's what you started with .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So \" in the bus \" and \" on the bus , \" um , that 's actually a little tricky in English because to some extent they 're synonyms . OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I had two hours w with George on this , so it ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , what did he say .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Did you ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Join the club .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Oh , h that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" On the bus \" is a m is a metaphorical metonymy that relates some meta path metaphorically and you 're on {disfmarker} on that path and th w I mean it 's {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} there 's a platform notion ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I believe all that , it 's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ? \" he 's on the {disfmarker} standing on the bus waving to me . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But th the regular as we speak \" J Johno was on the bus to New York , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "um , uh , he 's {disfmarker} that 's , uh , what did I call it here , the transportation schema , something ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "where you can be on the first flight , on the second flight ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and you can be , you know , on the wagon .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} that may or may not be what you {disfmarker} what you want to do . I mean you could do something much simpler", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "like \" under the bus , \" or something , where {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} unfortunately , this is not really something a tourist would ever say . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , unless he was repairing it or something ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , but OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So in terms of the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We had {disfmarker} we had {disfmarker} initially we 'd {disfmarker} started discussing the \" out of film . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And there 's a lot of \" out of \" analysis , so , um ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "could we capture that with a different construal of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's a little {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} we 've thought about it before , uh t uh {disfmarker} to use the examples in other papers , and it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little complicated . Cuz you 're like , it 's a state of {disfmarker} there 's resource ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Out of {disfmarker} out of film , in particular .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right , and like , what is film ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "the state {disfmarker} you know . You 're out of the state of having film , right ? and somehow film is standing for the re the resour the state of having some resource is just labeled as that resource .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah , I mean ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's a little bit {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} and plus the fact that there 's also s I mean , can you say , like , \" The film ran out \" you know , or , maybe you could say something like \" The film is out \"", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , is film the trajector ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so like the {disfmarker} the film went away from where it should be , namely with you , or something , right ? You know . The {disfmarker} the film {disfmarker} the film is gone , right ? Um , I never really knew what was going on , I mean I {disfmarker} I find it sort of a little bit farfetched to say that {disfmarker} that \" I 'm out of film \" means that I have left the state of having film or something like that ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's weird . That {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Or , \" having \" is also , um , associated with location ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "so if the film left , you know {disfmarker} state is being near film .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So running {disfmarker} running out of something is different from being out of somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or being out of something as , uh {disfmarker} as well . So \" running out of it \" definitely has a process aspect to it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But that 's from run , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "b that 's OK ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} b but the difference", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Is the d the final state of running out of something is being out of it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . You got there .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "That part is fine .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You got to out of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} so nob so no one has in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} of the , uh , professional linguists ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "they haven't {disfmarker} there was this whole thesis on \" out of \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There was ? Who ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , there {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} or there was a paper on it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Out .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There was one on {disfmarker} on \" out \" or \" out of \" ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "There was a Well , it may be just \" out \" . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I think there was \" over \" but there was also a paper on \" out \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , Lind - Susan Lindner ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah , you 're right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ? The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} \" the syrup spread out \" ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That kind of thing ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . And undoubtably there 's been reams of work about it in cognitive linguistics ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . But anyway . We 're not gonna do that between now and next week .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It 's not one of the y it 's more straightforward ones {disfmarker} forward ones to defend , so you probably don't want to use it for the purposes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "th these are {disfmarker} you 're addressing like , computational linguists ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right . Or {disfmarker} are you ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There 's gonna be four computational linguists ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . But more emphasis on the computational ? Or emphasis on the linguist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "computer it 's {disfmarker} More {disfmarker} there 's going to be the {disfmarker} just four computational linguists , by coincidence , but the rest is , whatever , biocomputing people and physicists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No no no , but not for your talk . I 'm - we 're worrying about the th the thes", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , the thesis !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , I meant this ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's just for one guy .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's computa should be very computational ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "you know , like {disfmarker} OK . So I would try to {disfmarker} I would stay away from one that involves weird construal stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and , uh , someth", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You know , it 's an obvious one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Totally weird stuff .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} the old bakery example might be nice ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "\" Is there a bakery around here \" . So if you c we really just construe it as a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Around ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , it 's the bakery itself {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "is it a building ? uh , that you want to go to ? or is it something to eat that you want to buy ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh yeah . Yeah , we 've thought about that . Right . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nnn . No . What ? \" Bakery \" can't be something you 're gonna eat .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no . The question is d do you wanna {disfmarker} do you wanna construe {disfmarker} do you wanna constr - strue", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sh", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's a speech - act .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "r Exactly . It 's because do you wanna c do you want to view the bakery as a p a place that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} i for example , if {disfmarker} y", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Where you can get baked goods .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well th well , that 's one . You want to buy something . But the other is , uh , yo you might have smelled a smell and are just curious about whether there 'd be a bakery in the neighborhood , or ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "um , pfff you know , you wonder how people here make their living , and {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of reasons why you might be asking about the existence of a bakery", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "that doesn't mean , \" I want to buy some baked goods . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But {vocalsound} um , those are interesting examples but it 's not clear that they 're mainly construal examples .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's a lot of pragmatics , there , that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's all sorts of stuff going on .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "might be beyond what you want to do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So let 's {disfmarker} so let 's think about this from the point of view of construal . So let 's first do a {disfmarker} So the metonymy thing is probably the easiest and a and actually the {disfmarker} Though , the one you have isn't quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You mean the s You mean \" the steak wants to pay \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "N no not that one , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} the sort of background . This is the t uh , page five .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "About Plato and the book ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "How much does it cost ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just beyond that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Onward .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Where is the castle ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "A castle .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "How old is it ? How much does it cost ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "To go in , that 's like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Two hundred million dollars .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . It 's not for sale . Uh . So", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that 's a good example , actually .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's good . u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But as Nancy just su suggested it 's probably ellipticus .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ellipsis .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Like , \" it \" doesn't refer to \" thing , \" it refers to acti you know , j thing standing for activ most relevant activity for a tourist {disfmarker} you could think of it that way , but .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , shoot , isn't that {disfmarker} I mean , that 's what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , my argument here is {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's the same thing as \" Plato 's on the top shelf , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "figuring that out is what this is about .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , no , I I agree .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm con you know , th that you can refer to a book of Plato by using \" Plato , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No no , I {disfmarker} I 'm agreeing that this is a good , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and you can refer back to it , and so you can {disfmarker} Castles have {disfmarker} as tourist sites , have admission fees , so you can say \" Where is the castle , how much does it cost ? \" Um . \" How far is it from here ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So , You 're also not referring to the width of the object , or so ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "www .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Can we think of a nice metaphorical use of \" where \" in the tourist 's domain ? Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you know it 's {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you can sometimes use \" where \" f for \" when \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "O", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "in the sense of , you know , um , where {disfmarker} wh where {disfmarker} where was , um , \" where was Heidelberg , um , in the Thirty Years ' War ? \" Or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You know , or some such thing . Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Like what side were they on ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Essentially , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I was like , \" Huh ? It was here . \" Like {disfmarker} {comment} Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But anyway th so there are {disfmarker} there are cases like that . Um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ah ! Or like its developmental state or something like that , you could {disfmarker} I guess you could get that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's also things like {disfmarker} I mean , s um , I guess I could ask something like \" Where can I find out about blah - blah - blah \" in a sort of {disfmarker} doesn't nece I don't necessarily have to care about the spatial location , just give me a phone number", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . There certainly is that , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and I 'll call them or something like that ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You know , \" Where could I learn its opening hours , \" or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But that 's not metaphorical .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So we 're thinking about , um , or we could also think about , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "How about \" I 'm in a hurry \" ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "State .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It i But it 's a state {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} the issue is , is that {disfmarker} it may be just a usage ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "you know , that it 's not particularly metaphorical , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . So you want a more exotic one {disfmarker} version of that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm really into {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah ! How about I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , \" I 'm in {disfmarker} I 'm in a state of exhaustion \" ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Do you really say that ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or something like that , which a tourist w Huh ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Would you really say that ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "A st uh , well , you can certainly say , um , you know , \" I 'm in overload . \" Tu - stur tourists will often say that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I I 'm really into art .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was gonna say , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , you can do that ? Really ? Of course that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's definitely a , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Fixed .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A fixed expression , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "that 's a , uh {disfmarker} Right . But . {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 're too {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of fixed expressions I don't {disfmarker} like uh \" I 'm out of sorts now ! \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Like {comment} \" I 'm in trouble ! \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} when , uh {disfmarker} just f u the data that I 've looked at so far that rec", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's tons of cases for polysemy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know , mak re making reference to buildings as institutions , as containers , as build", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "you know , whatever . Um , so ib in mus for example , in museums , you know , as a building or as something where pictures hang versus , you know , ev something that puts on exhibits , so forth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . As an institution ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't you want to use any of those ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So y you don't wanna use one that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well {disfmarker} No , but this {disfmarker} that 's what I have , you know , started doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The castle {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that old castle one is sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Metonymy , polysemy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love Van Gogh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" I wanna go see the Van Gogh . \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh geez .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Anyway , I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think the argument should be {disfmarker} uh , can be made that , you know , despite the fact that this is not the most met metaphorical domain , because people interacting with HTI systems try to be straightforward and less lyrical ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "construal still is , uh , you know , completely , um , key in terms of finding out any of these things , so , um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a reasonable point , that it {disfmarker} in this domain you 're gonna get less metaphor and more metonymy .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "We , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} I looked {disfmarker} with a student I looked at the entire database that we have on Heidelberg for cases of metonymy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And polysemy , and stuff like that . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hardly anything . So not even in descriptions w did we find anything , um , relevant .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I have to go .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Alright . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But OK this is just something we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see , um ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . s See you .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and deal with .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , well . I guess if anybody has additional suggestions ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean maybe the \" where is something \" question as a whole , you know , can be construed as , u i locational versus instructional request .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "w Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , if we 're not talk about the lexic", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Location versus what ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "instruction .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Instruction . Oh , directions ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , I thought that was {disfmarker} definitely treated as an example of construal .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah but then you 're not on the lexical level , that 's sort of one level higher .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you want a lexical example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I don't need it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , you might want both .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Also it would be nice to get {disfmarker} ultimately to get a nice mental space example ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "so , even temporal references are {disfmarker} just in the spatial domain are rare .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's easy to make up plausible ones .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "When {disfmarker} when you 're getting information on objects .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , you know {disfmarker} you know , where r Yeah . What color was this in {disfmarker} in in the nain nineteenth century .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What was this p instead of {disfmarker} wh what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} how was this painted , what color was this painted , um , was this alleyway open .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can include that also in our second , uh , data run .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "We c we can show people pictures of objects and then have then ask the system about the objects and engage in conversation on the history and the art and the architecture and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . So why don't we plan to give you feedback electronically . Wish you a good trip . All success .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "For some reason when you said \" feedback electronically \" I thought of that {disfmarker} you ever see the Simpsons where they 're {disfmarker} like the family 's got the buzzers and they buzz each other when they don't like what the other one is saying ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's the {disfmarker} first one , I think . The very very first one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It was a very early one . I don't know if it 's the first one .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "Ah , so comfortable .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Smooth .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Good . I know that he 's going to like , Taiwan and other places to eat . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "On ? Am I on ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think I 'm on ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good . Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bye .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I just had one of the most frustrating meetings of my career .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's definitely not the most frustrating meeting I 've ever had .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You a You 're {disfmarker} you remember you 're being recorded at this point .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah , so , w we didn't yet specify with whom .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So that 's why Keith and I are going to be a little dazed for the first half m the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Huh . Yeah , I 'm just gonna sit here and", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I avoided that as long as I could for you guys ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "growl .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "For which we thank you , by the way .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Are very appreciative , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I know you were {disfmarker} you were doing that , but , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , how di how d exactly did , uh , that paper lead to anti - lock brakes ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , I could tell you had a rough day , man !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I love that story .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's a great story .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh my goodness .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , um , Liz suggested we could start off by uh , doing the digits all at the same time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "All at the same time . I don't know if {disfmarker} I would get distracted and confused , probably .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "e", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Really ? Do we have to like , synchronize ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , I think you 're supposed to {disfmarker} OK . We can do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Are you being silly ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh wait do we have t", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everybody 's got different digits ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , do we have to time them at the same time or just overlapping {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You 're kidding .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no , just {disfmarker} just start whenever you want .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And any rate ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "e yeah , the", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , they {disfmarker} they have s they have the close talking microphones for each of us ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , there 's separate channels .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So when I say", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just plug one ear .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You lose .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , bye ! That was a great meeting !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So - {vocalsound} Now , uh , why ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Just to save time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Does matter for them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are we gonna start all our meetings out that way from now on ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh . Too bad . I kinda like it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , could we ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's strangely satisfying .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a ritual .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Are we to r Just to make sure I know what 's going on , we 're talking about Robert 's thesis proposal today ? Is that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We could .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "true ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We are ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We might .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , you {disfmarker} you had s you said there were two things that you might wanna do . One was rehearse your i i talk {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh yes , and that too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} not rehearse , I mean , I have just not spent any time on it , so I can show you what I 've got , get your input on it , and maybe some suggestions , that would be great . And the same is true for the proposal . I will have time to do some revision and some additional stuff on various airplanes and trains . So , um . I don't know how much of a chance you had to actually read it", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I haven't looked at it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but you could always send me comments per electronic mail", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I will .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they will be incorporated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} It basically says , well \" this is construal \" , and then it continues to say that one could potentially build a probabilistic relational model that has some general , domain - general rules how things are construed , and then the idea is to use ontology , situation , user , and discourse model to instantiate elements in the classes of the probabilistic relational model {pause} to do some inferences in terms of what is being construed as what", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in our beloved tourism domain . But , with a focus on", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Can I s Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think I need a copy of this , yes .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , we can {disfmarker} we can {disfmarker} we can pass {disfmarker} pass my , uh {disfmarker} we can pass my extra copy around .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I is there an extra copy around ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh . He sent it . OK . You can keep it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Er , actually , my only copy , now that I think about it ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alrigh", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , I don't {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} I don't need it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but . I already read half of it , so it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um , actually this is the {disfmarker} the newest version after your comments ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , no I s I s I see this has got the castle in it , and stuff like that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe the version I didn't have that I {disfmarker} mine {disfmarker} the w did the one you sent on the email have the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That was the most recent one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Cuz I read halfway but I didn't see a castle thing .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm changing this . Just so you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um , if you would have checked your email you may have received a note from Yees asking you to send me the , uh , up - to - d", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . Oh , sorry . OK . Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "current formalism thing that you presented .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . I will . OK . OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But for this it doesn't matter . But , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We can talk about it later . That 's not even ready , so . Um , OK ! Go on t to , uh , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm making changes . \" Don't worry about that . \" OK . Mmm - mmm . Oh ! OK , sorry , go on .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And any type of comment whether it 's a spelling or a syntax or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "readability {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" . On page five .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Anyway . And y uh , email any time , but most usefully before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The twenty - first I 'm assuming .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The twenty - first ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Twenty - ninth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , this is the twenty - first .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What , today 's the twenty - first ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , better hurry up then !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh , man !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Before the twenty - ninth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The twenty - ninth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's when I 'm meeting with Wolfgang Wahlster to sell him this idea .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK ? Then I 'm also going to present a little talk at EML , about what we have done here and so of course , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm gonna start out with this slide , so the most relevant aspects of our stay here , and um , then I 'm asking them to imagine that they 're standing somewhere in Heidelberg and someone asks them in the morning {disfmarker} The Cave Forty - Five is a {disfmarker} is a well - known discotheque which is certainly not open at that {disfmarker} that time . And so", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "they 're supposed to imagine that , you know , do they think the person wants to go there , or just know where it is ? Uh , which is probably not , uh , the case in that discotheque example , or in the Bavaria example , you just want to know where it is . And so forth . So basically we can make a point that here is ontological knowledge but if it 's nine {disfmarker} nine PM in the evening then the discotheque question would be , for example , one that might ask for directions instead of just location . Um , {vocalsound} and so forth and so forth . That 's sort of motivating it . Then what have we done so far ? We had our little bit of , um , um , SmartKom stuff , that we did , um , everth", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you 've got the parser done . Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "That 's the {disfmarker} not the construction parser . That 's the , uh , tablet - based parser ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Easy parser .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and the generation outputter .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Halfway done ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You have to change those strategies ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? That 's , ten words ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , i it , you know . Maybe twelve .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Twelve ? OK . And , um , and Fey is doing the synthesis stuff as we speak . That 's all about that . Then I 'm going to talk about the data , you know these things about {disfmarker} uh , actually I have an example , probably . Two s Can you hear that ? Or should I turn the l volume on .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I could hear it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I I can hear it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I heard it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "They might not hear it in the {disfmarker} well maybe they will . I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "This was an actual , um , subject ? Ah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sounds like Fey .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But they 're {disfmarker} they 're mimicking the synthesis when they speak to the computer ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} you can observe that all the time , they 're trying to match their prosody onto the machine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh really . Interesting . Oh , it 's pretty slow .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Wh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The system breaking .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What is the s ? Oh !", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . And so forth and so forth . Um , I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing , and how we solved it , and some preliminary observations , also , um , I 'm not gonna put in the figures from Liz , but I thought it would interesting to , uh , um , point out that it 's basically the same . Um , as in every human - human telephone conversation , and the human - computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from , uh , some first , uh , observations . Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz , uh {disfmarker} how to get there , what actually is happening there today , and then maybe talk about the big picture here , e tell a little bit {disfmarker} as much as I {pause} can about the NTL story . I {disfmarker} I wa I do wanna , um {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure about this , whether I should put this in , um , that , you know , you have these two sort of different ideas that are {disfmarker} or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works , and then , {vocalsound} talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude , I 'll talk about monkeys in Italy . And , um , Srini was gonna send me some slides but he didn't do it , so from {disfmarker} but I have the paper , I can make a resume of that , and then I stole an X - schema from one of your talks I think .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . I was like , \" where 'd you get that ? \" OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that looks familiar .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "\" Looks familiar . \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think that 's Bergen , Chang , something , or the other .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , and that 's {disfmarker} now I 'm not going to bring that . So that 's basically what I have , so far , and the rest is for airplanes . So X - schemas , then , I would like to do {disfmarker} talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "End of story . Anything I forgot that we should mention ? Oh , maybe the FMRI stuff . Should I mention the fact that , um , we 're also actually started {disfmarker} going to start to look at people 's brains in a more direct way ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You certainly can . I mean I y I you know , I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You might just wanna like , tack that on , as a comment , to something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right , um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" Future activities \" something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , the time to mention it , if you mention it , is when you talk about mirror neurons , then you should talk about the more recent stuff , about the kicking", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and , you know , the {disfmarker} yeah , yeah {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} that the plan is to see to what extent the {disfmarker} you 'll get the same phenomena with stories about this , so that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and that we 're planning to do this , um , which , we are . So that 's one thing . Um . Depends . I mean , there is a , um , whole language learning story , OK ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "which , uh , actually , i i even on your five - layer slide , you {disfmarker} you 've got an old one that {disfmarker} that leaves that off .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do have it here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um . And , of course , you know , the {disfmarker} the big picture is this bit .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But , you know , it would {disfmarker} But I don't think I {disfmarker} I am capable of {disfmarker} of do pulling this off and doing justice to the matter . I mean , there is interesting stuff in her terms of how language works , so the emergentism story would be nice to be {disfmarker} you know , it would be nice to tell people how {disfmarker} what 's happening there , plus how the , uh , language learning stuff works ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so , so anyway , I {disfmarker} I agree that 's not central .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What you might wanna do is , um , and may not , but you might wanna {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} rip off a bunch of the slides on the anal there {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} we 've got various i generations of slides that show language analysis , and matching to the underlying image schemas , and , um , how the construction and simulation {disfmarker} that ho that whole th", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , th that {disfmarker} that 's c that comes up to the X - schema slide ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so basically I 'm gonna steal that from Nancy ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , I can give you a more recent {disfmarker} if you want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "one of Nancy 's st", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "well , that might have enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , I {disfmarker} yeah , but I also have stuff you {disfmarker} trash you left over ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "your quals and your triple - AI .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The quals w the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quals slides would be fine .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could get it out of there , or some", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Which I can even email you then , you know , like there probably was a little {disfmarker} few changes , not a big deal . Yeah , you could steal anything you want , I don't care . Which you 've already done , obviously . So . Sorry", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't feel bad about it at all", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , you shouldn't .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because you are on the , uh , title .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's great , that 's great .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean on the {disfmarker} the , you 're {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} see , that 's you .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to see propagation .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Propagated ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean I might even mention that this work you 're doing is sort of also with the MPI in Leipzig , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's certainly related , um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because , um , EML is building up a huge thing in Leipzig .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "might wanna say . Is it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} It 's on biocomputation . Would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's different , this is the , uh , DNA building , or someth the double helix building .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Kind of a different level of analysis .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} yeah it was {disfmarker} it turns out that if {disfmarker} if you have multiple billions of dollars , y you can do all sorts of weird things , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Wait , they 're building a building in the shape of DNA ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "is that what you said ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Roughly , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh ! Oh boy !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "O", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Including cr cross - bridges ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh my god !", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's brilliant ! Hhh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You d you really {disfmarker} now I I spent {disfmarker} the last time I was there I spent maybe two hours hearing this story which is , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Of what", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Y You definitely wanna w don't wanna waste that money on research ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "the building ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's horrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Well , no , no , y i there 's infinite money . See you th you th you then fill it with researchers .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And give them more money . They just want a fun place for them to {disfmarker} to work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And everybody gets a trampoline in their office .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , the {disfmarker} the offices are actually a little {disfmarker} the , think of um , ramps , coming out of the double helix and then you have these half - domes , glass half - domes , and the offices are in {disfmarker} in the glass half - dome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright , let 's stop talking about this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Does it exist yet ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "They are w now building it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , as a model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I th", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , yeah , I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good point , th th that the date , the , uh , a lot of the {disfmarker} this is interacting with , uh , people in Italy but also definitely the people in Leipzig and the {disfmarker} the b the combination of the biology and the Leipzig connection might be interesting to these guys , yeah . OK . OK . Anyway ! Enough of that , let 's talk about your thesis proposal .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , if somebody has something to say .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You might want to , uh , double - check the spellings of the authors ' names on your references , you had a few , uh , misspells in your slides , there . Like I believe you had \" Jackendorf \" .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , unless there 's a person called \" Jackendorf \" ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "On that one ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no , no .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "yeah . But that 's the only thing I noticed in there .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "In the presentation ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "In the presentation .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I 'll probably {disfmarker} I c might have {disfmarker} I 'll probably have comments for you separately , not important . Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , in the presentation here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what he was talking about .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I was ac actually worried about bibtex . Uh . No , that 's quite possible . That 's copy and paste from something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So I did note i i it looks like the , uh , metaphor didn't get in yet .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , it did , there is a reference to Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , s reference is one thing , the question is is there any place {disfmarker} Oh , did you put in something about ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Metonymy and metaphor here , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , the individual , we 'd talked about putting in something about people had , uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah , OK . Good . I see where you have it . So the top of the second {disfmarker} of pa page two you have a sentence .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But , what I meant is , I think even before you give this , to Wahlster , uh , you should , unless you put it in the text , and I don't think it 's there yet , about {disfmarker} we talked about is the , um , scalability that you get by , um , combining the constructions with the general construal mechanism . Is that in there ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , mmm . Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , so where {disfmarker} where is it , cuz I 'll have to take a look .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , but I {disfmarker} I did not focus on that aspect but , um {disfmarker} Ehhh , um , it 's just underneath , uh , um , that reference to metaphor . So it 's the last paragraph before two . So on page two , um , the main focus {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But that 's really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's not about that , is it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it s says it but it doesn't say {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker} it d it d", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Why .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , it doesn't give the punch line .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz let me tell the gang what I think the punch line is , because it 's actually important , which is , that , the constructions , that , uh , Nancy and Keith and friends are doing , uh , are , in a way , quite general but cover only base cases . And to make them apply to metaphorical cases and metonymic cases and all those things , requires this additional mechanism , of construal . And the punch line is , he claimed , that if you do this right , you can get essentially orthogonality , that if you introduce a new construction at {disfmarker} at the base level , it should com uh , interact with all the metonymies and metaphors so that all of the projections of it also should work .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "And , similarly , if you introduce a new metaphor , it should then uh , compose with all of the constructions .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} to the extent that that 's true then {disfmarker} then it 's a big win over anything that exists .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So does that mean instead of having tons and tons of rules in your context - free grammar you just have these base constructs and then a general mechanism for coercing them .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So that , you know , for example , uh , in the metaphor case , that you have a kind of direct idea of a source , path , and goal and any metaphorical one {disfmarker} and abstract goals and all that sort of stuff {comment} {disfmarker} you can do the same grammar .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And it is the same grammar . But , um , the trick is that the {disfmarker} the way the construction 's written it requires that the object of the preposition for example be a container . Well , \" trouble \" isn't a container , but it gets constr construed as a c container .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Et cetera . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's where this , um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So with construal you don't have to have a construction for every possible thing that can fill the rule .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So 's it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a very big deal , i i in this framework , and the thesis proposal as it stands doesn't , um , I don't think , say that as clearly as it could .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No , it doesn't say it at all . No . Even though {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One could argue what {disfmarker} if there are basic cases , even . I mean , it seems like nothing is context - free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , nothing is context - free , but there are basic cases . That is , um , there are physical containers , there are physical paths , there {disfmarker} you know , et cetera .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But \" walked into the cafe and ordered a drink , \" and \" walked into the cafe and broke his nose , \" that 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , it doesn't mean that they 're unambiguous .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , a cafe can be construed as a container , or it can be construed you know as {disfmarker} as a obstacle ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "or as some physical object . So there are multiple construals . And in fact that 's part of what has to be done . This is why there 's this interaction between the analysis and the construal .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The b the {disfmarker} the double arrow .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , uh , yeah , I mean , it doesn't magically make ambiguity go away .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it does say that , uh , if you walked into the cafe and broke your nose , then you are construing the cafe as an obstacle .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if that 's not consistent with other things , then you 've gotta reject that reading .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You con {disfmarker} you conditioned me with your first sentence , and so I thought , \" Why would he walk into the cafe and then somehow break his nose ? \" uh , oh , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "He slipped on the wet floor .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You don't find that usage , uh {disfmarker} uh , I checked for it in the Brown national corpus .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The \" walk into it \" never really means , w as in walked smack {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But \" run into \" does .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but , y y if you find \" walked smacked into the cafe \" or \" slammed into the wall \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , but \" run into \" does .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Because you will find \" run into , \" uh ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Cars run into telephone poles all the time .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well , or \" into the cafe \" for that m", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "you know {disfmarker} \" His car ran into the cafe . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or you can run into an old friend , or run .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , you can \" run into \" in that sense too .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , \" run into \" might even be more impact sense than , you know , container sense .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But , uh , Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Depends .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Like , \" run into an old friend \" , it probably needs its own construction . I mean , uh , you know , George would have I 'm sure some exa complicated ex reason why it really was an instance of something else", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and maybe it is , but , um , there are idioms and my guess is that 's one of them , but , um {disfmarker} I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "All contact . I mean , there there 's contact that doesn't {disfmarker} social contact , whatever . I mean .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sudden surprising contact ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Right . i Yeah , it 's more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Forceful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But of course , no , i i I mean it has a life of its own . It 's sort of partially inspired by the spatial {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , this is this motivated {disfmarker} but yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "oh yeah , mo for sure , motivated , but then you can't parse on motivated .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Too bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You should get a T - shirt that says that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there 's lots of things you could make T - shirts out of , but , uh , this has gotten {disfmarker} I mean wh We don't need the words to that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Pro - probably not your marks in the kitchen , today .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What ? Oh , no no no no no no no no no , we 're not going there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} not your marks .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so , um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "In other news .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "anything else you want to ask us about the thesis proposal , you got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could look at a particular thing and give you feedback on it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} actually {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i what would have been really nice is to find an example for all of this , uh , from our domain . So maybe if we w if we can make one up {pause} now , that would be c incredibly helpful .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , w where it should illustrate", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} wh when you say all this , do you mean , like , I don't know , the related work stuff ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "How {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "as well as , mappings ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "w Well we have , for example , a canonical use of something", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right {disfmarker} right {disfmarker} r", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and y it 's , you know , we have some constructions and then it 's construed as something , and then we {disfmarker} we may get the same constructions with a metaphorical use that 's also relevant to the {disfmarker} to the domain .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , f let 's {disfmarker} let 's suppose you use \" in \" and \" on \" . I mean , that 's what you started with .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So \" in the bus \" and \" on the bus , \" um , that 's actually a little tricky in English because to some extent they 're synonyms . OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I had two hours w with George on this , so it ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , what did he say .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Did you ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Join the club .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Oh , h that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" On the bus \" is a m is a metaphorical metonymy that relates some meta path metaphorically and you 're on {disfmarker} on that path and th w I mean it 's {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} there 's a platform notion ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I believe all that , it 's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ? \" he 's on the {disfmarker} standing on the bus waving to me . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But th the regular as we speak \" J Johno was on the bus to New York , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "um , uh , he 's {disfmarker} that 's , uh , what did I call it here , the transportation schema , something ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "where you can be on the first flight , on the second flight ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and you can be , you know , on the wagon .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} that may or may not be what you {disfmarker} what you want to do . I mean you could do something much simpler", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "like \" under the bus , \" or something , where {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} unfortunately , this is not really something a tourist would ever say . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , unless he was repairing it or something ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , but OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So in terms of the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We had {disfmarker} we had {disfmarker} initially we 'd {disfmarker} started discussing the \" out of film . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And there 's a lot of \" out of \" analysis , so , um ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "could we capture that with a different construal of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's a little {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} we 've thought about it before , uh t uh {disfmarker} to use the examples in other papers , and it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little complicated . Cuz you 're like , it 's a state of {disfmarker} there 's resource ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Out of {disfmarker} out of film , in particular .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right , and like , what is film ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "the state {disfmarker} you know . You 're out of the state of having film , right ? and somehow film is standing for the re the resour the state of having some resource is just labeled as that resource .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah , I mean ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's a little bit {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} and plus the fact that there 's also s I mean , can you say , like , \" The film ran out \" you know , or , maybe you could say something like \" The film is out \"", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , is film the trajector ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so like the {disfmarker} the film went away from where it should be , namely with you , or something , right ? You know . The {disfmarker} the film {disfmarker} the film is gone , right ? Um , I never really knew what was going on , I mean I {disfmarker} I find it sort of a little bit farfetched to say that {disfmarker} that \" I 'm out of film \" means that I have left the state of having film or something like that ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's weird . That {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Or , \" having \" is also , um , associated with location ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "so if the film left , you know {disfmarker} state is being near film .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So running {disfmarker} running out of something is different from being out of somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or being out of something as , uh {disfmarker} as well . So \" running out of it \" definitely has a process aspect to it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But that 's from run , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "b that 's OK ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} b but the difference", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Is the d the final state of running out of something is being out of it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . You got there .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "That part is fine .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You got to out of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} so nob so no one has in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} of the , uh , professional linguists ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "they haven't {disfmarker} there was this whole thesis on \" out of \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There was ? Who ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , there {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} or there was a paper on it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Out .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There was one on {disfmarker} on \" out \" or \" out of \" ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "There was a Well , it may be just \" out \" . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I think there was \" over \" but there was also a paper on \" out \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , Lind - Susan Lindner ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah , you 're right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ? The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} \" the syrup spread out \" ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That kind of thing ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . And undoubtably there 's been reams of work about it in cognitive linguistics ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . But anyway . We 're not gonna do that between now and next week .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It 's not one of the y it 's more straightforward ones {disfmarker} forward ones to defend , so you probably don't want to use it for the purposes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "th these are {disfmarker} you 're addressing like , computational linguists ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right . Or {disfmarker} are you ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There 's gonna be four computational linguists ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . But more emphasis on the computational ? Or emphasis on the linguist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "computer it 's {disfmarker} More {disfmarker} there 's going to be the {disfmarker} just four computational linguists , by coincidence , but the rest is , whatever , biocomputing people and physicists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No no no , but not for your talk . I 'm - we 're worrying about the th the thes", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , the thesis !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , I meant this ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's just for one guy .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's computa should be very computational ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "you know , like {disfmarker} OK . So I would try to {disfmarker} I would stay away from one that involves weird construal stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and , uh , someth", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You know , it 's an obvious one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Totally weird stuff .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} the old bakery example might be nice ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "\" Is there a bakery around here \" . So if you c we really just construe it as a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Around ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , it 's the bakery itself {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "is it a building ? uh , that you want to go to ? or is it something to eat that you want to buy ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh yeah . Yeah , we 've thought about that . Right . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nnn . No . What ? \" Bakery \" can't be something you 're gonna eat .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no . The question is d do you wanna {disfmarker} do you wanna construe {disfmarker} do you wanna constr - strue", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sh", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's a speech - act .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "r Exactly . It 's because do you wanna c do you want to view the bakery as a p a place that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} i for example , if {disfmarker} y", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Where you can get baked goods .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well th well , that 's one . You want to buy something . But the other is , uh , yo you might have smelled a smell and are just curious about whether there 'd be a bakery in the neighborhood , or ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "um , pfff you know , you wonder how people here make their living , and {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of reasons why you might be asking about the existence of a bakery", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "that doesn't mean , \" I want to buy some baked goods . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But {vocalsound} um , those are interesting examples but it 's not clear that they 're mainly construal examples .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's a lot of pragmatics , there , that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's all sorts of stuff going on .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "might be beyond what you want to do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So let 's {disfmarker} so let 's think about this from the point of view of construal . So let 's first do a {disfmarker} So the metonymy thing is probably the easiest and a and actually the {disfmarker} Though , the one you have isn't quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You mean the s You mean \" the steak wants to pay \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "N no not that one , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} the sort of background . This is the t uh , page five .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "About Plato and the book ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "How much does it cost ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just beyond that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Onward .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Where is the castle ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "A castle .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "How old is it ? How much does it cost ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "To go in , that 's like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Two hundred million dollars .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . It 's not for sale . Uh . So", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that 's a good example , actually .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's good . u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But as Nancy just su suggested it 's probably ellipticus .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ellipsis .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Like , \" it \" doesn't refer to \" thing , \" it refers to acti you know , j thing standing for activ most relevant activity for a tourist {disfmarker} you could think of it that way , but .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , shoot , isn't that {disfmarker} I mean , that 's what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , my argument here is {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's the same thing as \" Plato 's on the top shelf , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "figuring that out is what this is about .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , no , I I agree .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm con you know , th that you can refer to a book of Plato by using \" Plato , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No no , I {disfmarker} I 'm agreeing that this is a good , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and you can refer back to it , and so you can {disfmarker} Castles have {disfmarker} as tourist sites , have admission fees , so you can say \" Where is the castle , how much does it cost ? \" Um . \" How far is it from here ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So , You 're also not referring to the width of the object , or so ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "www .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Can we think of a nice metaphorical use of \" where \" in the tourist 's domain ? Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you know it 's {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you can sometimes use \" where \" f for \" when \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "O", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "in the sense of , you know , um , where {disfmarker} wh where {disfmarker} where was , um , \" where was Heidelberg , um , in the Thirty Years ' War ? \" Or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You know , or some such thing . Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Like what side were they on ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Essentially , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I was like , \" Huh ? It was here . \" Like {disfmarker} {comment} Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But anyway th so there are {disfmarker} there are cases like that . Um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ah ! Or like its developmental state or something like that , you could {disfmarker} I guess you could get that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's also things like {disfmarker} I mean , s um , I guess I could ask something like \" Where can I find out about blah - blah - blah \" in a sort of {disfmarker} doesn't nece I don't necessarily have to care about the spatial location , just give me a phone number", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . There certainly is that , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and I 'll call them or something like that ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You know , \" Where could I learn its opening hours , \" or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But that 's not metaphorical .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So we 're thinking about , um , or we could also think about , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "How about \" I 'm in a hurry \" ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "State .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It i But it 's a state {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} the issue is , is that {disfmarker} it may be just a usage ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "you know , that it 's not particularly metaphorical , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . So you want a more exotic one {disfmarker} version of that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm really into {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah ! How about I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , \" I 'm in {disfmarker} I 'm in a state of exhaustion \" ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Do you really say that ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or something like that , which a tourist w Huh ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Would you really say that ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "A st uh , well , you can certainly say , um , you know , \" I 'm in overload . \" Tu - stur tourists will often say that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I I 'm really into art .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was gonna say , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , you can do that ? Really ? Of course that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's definitely a , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Fixed .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A fixed expression , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "that 's a , uh {disfmarker} Right . But . {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 're too {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of fixed expressions I don't {disfmarker} like uh \" I 'm out of sorts now ! \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Like {comment} \" I 'm in trouble ! \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} when , uh {disfmarker} just f u the data that I 've looked at so far that rec", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's tons of cases for polysemy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know , mak re making reference to buildings as institutions , as containers , as build", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "you know , whatever . Um , so ib in mus for example , in museums , you know , as a building or as something where pictures hang versus , you know , ev something that puts on exhibits , so forth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . As an institution ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't you want to use any of those ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So y you don't wanna use one that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well {disfmarker} No , but this {disfmarker} that 's what I have , you know , started doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The castle {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that old castle one is sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Metonymy , polysemy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love Van Gogh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" I wanna go see the Van Gogh . \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh geez .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Anyway , I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think the argument should be {disfmarker} uh , can be made that , you know , despite the fact that this is not the most met metaphorical domain , because people interacting with HTI systems try to be straightforward and less lyrical ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "construal still is , uh , you know , completely , um , key in terms of finding out any of these things , so , um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a reasonable point , that it {disfmarker} in this domain you 're gonna get less metaphor and more metonymy .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "We , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} I looked {disfmarker} with a student I looked at the entire database that we have on Heidelberg for cases of metonymy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And polysemy , and stuff like that . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hardly anything . So not even in descriptions w did we find anything , um , relevant .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I have to go .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Alright . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But OK this is just something we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see , um ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . s See you .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and deal with .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , well . I guess if anybody has additional suggestions ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean maybe the \" where is something \" question as a whole , you know , can be construed as , u i locational versus instructional request .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "w Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , if we 're not talk about the lexic", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Location versus what ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "instruction .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Instruction . Oh , directions ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , I thought that was {disfmarker} definitely treated as an example of construal .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah but then you 're not on the lexical level , that 's sort of one level higher .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you want a lexical example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I don't need it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , you might want both .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Also it would be nice to get {disfmarker} ultimately to get a nice mental space example ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "so , even temporal references are {disfmarker} just in the spatial domain are rare .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's easy to make up plausible ones .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "When {disfmarker} when you 're getting information on objects .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , you know {disfmarker} you know , where r Yeah . What color was this in {disfmarker} in in the nain nineteenth century .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What was this p instead of {disfmarker} wh what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} how was this painted , what color was this painted , um , was this alleyway open .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can include that also in our second , uh , data run .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "We c we can show people pictures of objects and then have then ask the system about the objects and engage in conversation on the history and the art and the architecture and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . So why don't we plan to give you feedback electronically . Wish you a good trip . All success .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "For some reason when you said \" feedback electronically \" I thought of that {disfmarker} you ever see the Simpsons where they 're {disfmarker} like the family 's got the buzzers and they buzz each other when they don't like what the other one is saying ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's the {disfmarker} first one , I think . The very very first one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It was a very early one . I don't know if it 's the first one .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "Ah , so comfortable .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Smooth .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Good . I know that he 's going to like , Taiwan and other places to eat . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "On ? Am I on ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think I 'm on ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good . Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bye .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I just had one of the most frustrating meetings of my career .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's definitely not the most frustrating meeting I 've ever had .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You a You 're {disfmarker} you remember you 're being recorded at this point .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah , so , w we didn't yet specify with whom .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So that 's why Keith and I are going to be a little dazed for the first half m the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Huh . Yeah , I 'm just gonna sit here and", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I avoided that as long as I could for you guys ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "growl .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "For which we thank you , by the way .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Are very appreciative , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I know you were {disfmarker} you were doing that , but , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , how di how d exactly did , uh , that paper lead to anti - lock brakes ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , I could tell you had a rough day , man !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I love that story .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's a great story .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh my goodness .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , um , Liz suggested we could start off by uh , doing the digits all at the same time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "All at the same time . I don't know if {disfmarker} I would get distracted and confused , probably .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "e", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Really ? Do we have to like , synchronize ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , I think you 're supposed to {disfmarker} OK . We can do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Are you being silly ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh wait do we have t", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everybody 's got different digits ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , do we have to time them at the same time or just overlapping {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You 're kidding .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no , just {disfmarker} just start whenever you want .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And any rate ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "e yeah , the", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , they {disfmarker} they have s they have the close talking microphones for each of us ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , there 's separate channels .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So when I say", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just plug one ear .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You lose .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , bye ! That was a great meeting !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So - {vocalsound} Now , uh , why ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Just to save time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Does matter for them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are we gonna start all our meetings out that way from now on ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh . Too bad . I kinda like it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , could we ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's strangely satisfying .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a ritual .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Are we to r Just to make sure I know what 's going on , we 're talking about Robert 's thesis proposal today ? Is that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We could .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "true ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We are ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We might .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , you {disfmarker} you had s you said there were two things that you might wanna do . One was rehearse your i i talk {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh yes , and that too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} not rehearse , I mean , I have just not spent any time on it , so I can show you what I 've got , get your input on it , and maybe some suggestions , that would be great . And the same is true for the proposal . I will have time to do some revision and some additional stuff on various airplanes and trains . So , um . I don't know how much of a chance you had to actually read it", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I haven't looked at it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but you could always send me comments per electronic mail", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I will .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they will be incorporated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} It basically says , well \" this is construal \" , and then it continues to say that one could potentially build a probabilistic relational model that has some general , domain - general rules how things are construed , and then the idea is to use ontology , situation , user , and discourse model to instantiate elements in the classes of the probabilistic relational model {pause} to do some inferences in terms of what is being construed as what", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in our beloved tourism domain . But , with a focus on", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Can I s Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think I need a copy of this , yes .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , we can {disfmarker} we can {disfmarker} we can pass {disfmarker} pass my , uh {disfmarker} we can pass my extra copy around .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I is there an extra copy around ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh . He sent it . OK . You can keep it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Er , actually , my only copy , now that I think about it ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alrigh", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , I don't {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} I don't need it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but . I already read half of it , so it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um , actually this is the {disfmarker} the newest version after your comments ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , no I s I s I see this has got the castle in it , and stuff like that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe the version I didn't have that I {disfmarker} mine {disfmarker} the w did the one you sent on the email have the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That was the most recent one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Cuz I read halfway but I didn't see a castle thing .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm changing this . Just so you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um , if you would have checked your email you may have received a note from Yees asking you to send me the , uh , up - to - d", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . Oh , sorry . OK . Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "current formalism thing that you presented .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . I will . OK . OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But for this it doesn't matter . But , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We can talk about it later . That 's not even ready , so . Um , OK ! Go on t to , uh , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm making changes . \" Don't worry about that . \" OK . Mmm - mmm . Oh ! OK , sorry , go on .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And any type of comment whether it 's a spelling or a syntax or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "readability {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" . On page five .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Anyway . And y uh , email any time , but most usefully before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The twenty - first I 'm assuming .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The twenty - first ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Twenty - ninth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , this is the twenty - first .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What , today 's the twenty - first ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , better hurry up then !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh , man !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Before the twenty - ninth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The twenty - ninth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's when I 'm meeting with Wolfgang Wahlster to sell him this idea .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK ? Then I 'm also going to present a little talk at EML , about what we have done here and so of course , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm gonna start out with this slide , so the most relevant aspects of our stay here , and um , then I 'm asking them to imagine that they 're standing somewhere in Heidelberg and someone asks them in the morning {disfmarker} The Cave Forty - Five is a {disfmarker} is a well - known discotheque which is certainly not open at that {disfmarker} that time . And so", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "they 're supposed to imagine that , you know , do they think the person wants to go there , or just know where it is ? Uh , which is probably not , uh , the case in that discotheque example , or in the Bavaria example , you just want to know where it is . And so forth . So basically we can make a point that here is ontological knowledge but if it 's nine {disfmarker} nine PM in the evening then the discotheque question would be , for example , one that might ask for directions instead of just location . Um , {vocalsound} and so forth and so forth . That 's sort of motivating it . Then what have we done so far ? We had our little bit of , um , um , SmartKom stuff , that we did , um , everth", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you 've got the parser done . Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "That 's the {disfmarker} not the construction parser . That 's the , uh , tablet - based parser ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Easy parser .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and the generation outputter .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Halfway done ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You have to change those strategies ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? That 's , ten words ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , i it , you know . Maybe twelve .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Twelve ? OK . And , um , and Fey is doing the synthesis stuff as we speak . That 's all about that . Then I 'm going to talk about the data , you know these things about {disfmarker} uh , actually I have an example , probably . Two s Can you hear that ? Or should I turn the l volume on .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I could hear it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I I can hear it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I heard it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "They might not hear it in the {disfmarker} well maybe they will . I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "This was an actual , um , subject ? Ah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sounds like Fey .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But they 're {disfmarker} they 're mimicking the synthesis when they speak to the computer ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} you can observe that all the time , they 're trying to match their prosody onto the machine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh really . Interesting . Oh , it 's pretty slow .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Wh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The system breaking .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What is the s ? Oh !", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . And so forth and so forth . Um , I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing , and how we solved it , and some preliminary observations , also , um , I 'm not gonna put in the figures from Liz , but I thought it would interesting to , uh , um , point out that it 's basically the same . Um , as in every human - human telephone conversation , and the human - computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from , uh , some first , uh , observations . Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz , uh {disfmarker} how to get there , what actually is happening there today , and then maybe talk about the big picture here , e tell a little bit {disfmarker} as much as I {pause} can about the NTL story . I {disfmarker} I wa I do wanna , um {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure about this , whether I should put this in , um , that , you know , you have these two sort of different ideas that are {disfmarker} or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works , and then , {vocalsound} talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude , I 'll talk about monkeys in Italy . And , um , Srini was gonna send me some slides but he didn't do it , so from {disfmarker} but I have the paper , I can make a resume of that , and then I stole an X - schema from one of your talks I think .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . I was like , \" where 'd you get that ? \" OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that looks familiar .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "\" Looks familiar . \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think that 's Bergen , Chang , something , or the other .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , and that 's {disfmarker} now I 'm not going to bring that . So that 's basically what I have , so far , and the rest is for airplanes . So X - schemas , then , I would like to do {disfmarker} talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "End of story . Anything I forgot that we should mention ? Oh , maybe the FMRI stuff . Should I mention the fact that , um , we 're also actually started {disfmarker} going to start to look at people 's brains in a more direct way ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You certainly can . I mean I y I you know , I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You might just wanna like , tack that on , as a comment , to something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right , um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" Future activities \" something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , the time to mention it , if you mention it , is when you talk about mirror neurons , then you should talk about the more recent stuff , about the kicking", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and , you know , the {disfmarker} yeah , yeah {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} that the plan is to see to what extent the {disfmarker} you 'll get the same phenomena with stories about this , so that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and that we 're planning to do this , um , which , we are . So that 's one thing . Um . Depends . I mean , there is a , um , whole language learning story , OK ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "which , uh , actually , i i even on your five - layer slide , you {disfmarker} you 've got an old one that {disfmarker} that leaves that off .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do have it here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um . And , of course , you know , the {disfmarker} the big picture is this bit .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But , you know , it would {disfmarker} But I don't think I {disfmarker} I am capable of {disfmarker} of do pulling this off and doing justice to the matter . I mean , there is interesting stuff in her terms of how language works , so the emergentism story would be nice to be {disfmarker} you know , it would be nice to tell people how {disfmarker} what 's happening there , plus how the , uh , language learning stuff works ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so , so anyway , I {disfmarker} I agree that 's not central .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What you might wanna do is , um , and may not , but you might wanna {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} rip off a bunch of the slides on the anal there {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} we 've got various i generations of slides that show language analysis , and matching to the underlying image schemas , and , um , how the construction and simulation {disfmarker} that ho that whole th", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , th that {disfmarker} that 's c that comes up to the X - schema slide ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so basically I 'm gonna steal that from Nancy ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , I can give you a more recent {disfmarker} if you want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "one of Nancy 's st", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "well , that might have enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , I {disfmarker} yeah , but I also have stuff you {disfmarker} trash you left over ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "your quals and your triple - AI .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The quals w the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quals slides would be fine .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could get it out of there , or some", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Which I can even email you then , you know , like there probably was a little {disfmarker} few changes , not a big deal . Yeah , you could steal anything you want , I don't care . Which you 've already done , obviously . So . Sorry", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't feel bad about it at all", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , you shouldn't .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because you are on the , uh , title .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's great , that 's great .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean on the {disfmarker} the , you 're {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} see , that 's you .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to see propagation .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Propagated ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean I might even mention that this work you 're doing is sort of also with the MPI in Leipzig , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's certainly related , um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because , um , EML is building up a huge thing in Leipzig .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "might wanna say . Is it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} It 's on biocomputation . Would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's different , this is the , uh , DNA building , or someth the double helix building .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Kind of a different level of analysis .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} yeah it was {disfmarker} it turns out that if {disfmarker} if you have multiple billions of dollars , y you can do all sorts of weird things , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Wait , they 're building a building in the shape of DNA ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "is that what you said ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Roughly , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh ! Oh boy !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "O", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Including cr cross - bridges ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh my god !", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's brilliant ! Hhh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You d you really {disfmarker} now I I spent {disfmarker} the last time I was there I spent maybe two hours hearing this story which is , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Of what", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Y You definitely wanna w don't wanna waste that money on research ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "the building ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's horrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Well , no , no , y i there 's infinite money . See you th you th you then fill it with researchers .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And give them more money . They just want a fun place for them to {disfmarker} to work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And everybody gets a trampoline in their office .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , the {disfmarker} the offices are actually a little {disfmarker} the , think of um , ramps , coming out of the double helix and then you have these half - domes , glass half - domes , and the offices are in {disfmarker} in the glass half - dome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright , let 's stop talking about this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Does it exist yet ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "They are w now building it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , as a model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I th", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , yeah , I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good point , th th that the date , the , uh , a lot of the {disfmarker} this is interacting with , uh , people in Italy but also definitely the people in Leipzig and the {disfmarker} the b the combination of the biology and the Leipzig connection might be interesting to these guys , yeah . OK . OK . Anyway ! Enough of that , let 's talk about your thesis proposal .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , if somebody has something to say .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You might want to , uh , double - check the spellings of the authors ' names on your references , you had a few , uh , misspells in your slides , there . Like I believe you had \" Jackendorf \" .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , unless there 's a person called \" Jackendorf \" ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "On that one ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no , no .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "yeah . But that 's the only thing I noticed in there .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "In the presentation ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "In the presentation .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I 'll probably {disfmarker} I c might have {disfmarker} I 'll probably have comments for you separately , not important . Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , in the presentation here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what he was talking about .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I was ac actually worried about bibtex . Uh . No , that 's quite possible . That 's copy and paste from something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So I did note i i it looks like the , uh , metaphor didn't get in yet .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , it did , there is a reference to Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , s reference is one thing , the question is is there any place {disfmarker} Oh , did you put in something about ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Metonymy and metaphor here , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , the individual , we 'd talked about putting in something about people had , uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah , OK . Good . I see where you have it . So the top of the second {disfmarker} of pa page two you have a sentence .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But , what I meant is , I think even before you give this , to Wahlster , uh , you should , unless you put it in the text , and I don't think it 's there yet , about {disfmarker} we talked about is the , um , scalability that you get by , um , combining the constructions with the general construal mechanism . Is that in there ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , mmm . Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , so where {disfmarker} where is it , cuz I 'll have to take a look .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , but I {disfmarker} I did not focus on that aspect but , um {disfmarker} Ehhh , um , it 's just underneath , uh , um , that reference to metaphor . So it 's the last paragraph before two . So on page two , um , the main focus {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But that 's really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's not about that , is it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it s says it but it doesn't say {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker} it d it d", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Why .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , it doesn't give the punch line .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz let me tell the gang what I think the punch line is , because it 's actually important , which is , that , the constructions , that , uh , Nancy and Keith and friends are doing , uh , are , in a way , quite general but cover only base cases . And to make them apply to metaphorical cases and metonymic cases and all those things , requires this additional mechanism , of construal . And the punch line is , he claimed , that if you do this right , you can get essentially orthogonality , that if you introduce a new construction at {disfmarker} at the base level , it should com uh , interact with all the metonymies and metaphors so that all of the projections of it also should work .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "And , similarly , if you introduce a new metaphor , it should then uh , compose with all of the constructions .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} to the extent that that 's true then {disfmarker} then it 's a big win over anything that exists .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So does that mean instead of having tons and tons of rules in your context - free grammar you just have these base constructs and then a general mechanism for coercing them .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So that , you know , for example , uh , in the metaphor case , that you have a kind of direct idea of a source , path , and goal and any metaphorical one {disfmarker} and abstract goals and all that sort of stuff {comment} {disfmarker} you can do the same grammar .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And it is the same grammar . But , um , the trick is that the {disfmarker} the way the construction 's written it requires that the object of the preposition for example be a container . Well , \" trouble \" isn't a container , but it gets constr construed as a c container .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Et cetera . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's where this , um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So with construal you don't have to have a construction for every possible thing that can fill the rule .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So 's it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a very big deal , i i in this framework , and the thesis proposal as it stands doesn't , um , I don't think , say that as clearly as it could .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No , it doesn't say it at all . No . Even though {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One could argue what {disfmarker} if there are basic cases , even . I mean , it seems like nothing is context - free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , nothing is context - free , but there are basic cases . That is , um , there are physical containers , there are physical paths , there {disfmarker} you know , et cetera .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But \" walked into the cafe and ordered a drink , \" and \" walked into the cafe and broke his nose , \" that 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , it doesn't mean that they 're unambiguous .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , a cafe can be construed as a container , or it can be construed you know as {disfmarker} as a obstacle ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "or as some physical object . So there are multiple construals . And in fact that 's part of what has to be done . This is why there 's this interaction between the analysis and the construal .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The b the {disfmarker} the double arrow .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , uh , yeah , I mean , it doesn't magically make ambiguity go away .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it does say that , uh , if you walked into the cafe and broke your nose , then you are construing the cafe as an obstacle .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if that 's not consistent with other things , then you 've gotta reject that reading .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You con {disfmarker} you conditioned me with your first sentence , and so I thought , \" Why would he walk into the cafe and then somehow break his nose ? \" uh , oh , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "He slipped on the wet floor .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You don't find that usage , uh {disfmarker} uh , I checked for it in the Brown national corpus .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The \" walk into it \" never really means , w as in walked smack {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But \" run into \" does .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but , y y if you find \" walked smacked into the cafe \" or \" slammed into the wall \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , but \" run into \" does .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Because you will find \" run into , \" uh ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Cars run into telephone poles all the time .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well , or \" into the cafe \" for that m", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "you know {disfmarker} \" His car ran into the cafe . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or you can run into an old friend , or run .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , you can \" run into \" in that sense too .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , \" run into \" might even be more impact sense than , you know , container sense .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But , uh , Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Depends .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Like , \" run into an old friend \" , it probably needs its own construction . I mean , uh , you know , George would have I 'm sure some exa complicated ex reason why it really was an instance of something else", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and maybe it is , but , um , there are idioms and my guess is that 's one of them , but , um {disfmarker} I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "All contact . I mean , there there 's contact that doesn't {disfmarker} social contact , whatever . I mean .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sudden surprising contact ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Right . i Yeah , it 's more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Forceful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But of course , no , i i I mean it has a life of its own . It 's sort of partially inspired by the spatial {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , this is this motivated {disfmarker} but yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "oh yeah , mo for sure , motivated , but then you can't parse on motivated .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Too bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You should get a T - shirt that says that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there 's lots of things you could make T - shirts out of , but , uh , this has gotten {disfmarker} I mean wh We don't need the words to that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Pro - probably not your marks in the kitchen , today .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What ? Oh , no no no no no no no no no , we 're not going there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} not your marks .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so , um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "In other news .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "anything else you want to ask us about the thesis proposal , you got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could look at a particular thing and give you feedback on it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} actually {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i what would have been really nice is to find an example for all of this , uh , from our domain . So maybe if we w if we can make one up {pause} now , that would be c incredibly helpful .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , w where it should illustrate", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} wh when you say all this , do you mean , like , I don't know , the related work stuff ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "How {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "as well as , mappings ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "w Well we have , for example , a canonical use of something", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right {disfmarker} right {disfmarker} r", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and y it 's , you know , we have some constructions and then it 's construed as something , and then we {disfmarker} we may get the same constructions with a metaphorical use that 's also relevant to the {disfmarker} to the domain .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , f let 's {disfmarker} let 's suppose you use \" in \" and \" on \" . I mean , that 's what you started with .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So \" in the bus \" and \" on the bus , \" um , that 's actually a little tricky in English because to some extent they 're synonyms . OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I had two hours w with George on this , so it ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , what did he say .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Did you ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Join the club .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Oh , h that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" On the bus \" is a m is a metaphorical metonymy that relates some meta path metaphorically and you 're on {disfmarker} on that path and th w I mean it 's {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} there 's a platform notion ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I believe all that , it 's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ? \" he 's on the {disfmarker} standing on the bus waving to me . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But th the regular as we speak \" J Johno was on the bus to New York , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "um , uh , he 's {disfmarker} that 's , uh , what did I call it here , the transportation schema , something ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "where you can be on the first flight , on the second flight ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and you can be , you know , on the wagon .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} that may or may not be what you {disfmarker} what you want to do . I mean you could do something much simpler", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "like \" under the bus , \" or something , where {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} unfortunately , this is not really something a tourist would ever say . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , unless he was repairing it or something ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , but OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So in terms of the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We had {disfmarker} we had {disfmarker} initially we 'd {disfmarker} started discussing the \" out of film . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And there 's a lot of \" out of \" analysis , so , um ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "could we capture that with a different construal of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's a little {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} we 've thought about it before , uh t uh {disfmarker} to use the examples in other papers , and it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little complicated . Cuz you 're like , it 's a state of {disfmarker} there 's resource ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Out of {disfmarker} out of film , in particular .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right , and like , what is film ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "the state {disfmarker} you know . You 're out of the state of having film , right ? and somehow film is standing for the re the resour the state of having some resource is just labeled as that resource .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah , I mean ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's a little bit {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} and plus the fact that there 's also s I mean , can you say , like , \" The film ran out \" you know , or , maybe you could say something like \" The film is out \"", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , is film the trajector ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so like the {disfmarker} the film went away from where it should be , namely with you , or something , right ? You know . The {disfmarker} the film {disfmarker} the film is gone , right ? Um , I never really knew what was going on , I mean I {disfmarker} I find it sort of a little bit farfetched to say that {disfmarker} that \" I 'm out of film \" means that I have left the state of having film or something like that ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's weird . That {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Or , \" having \" is also , um , associated with location ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "so if the film left , you know {disfmarker} state is being near film .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So running {disfmarker} running out of something is different from being out of somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or being out of something as , uh {disfmarker} as well . So \" running out of it \" definitely has a process aspect to it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But that 's from run , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "b that 's OK ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} b but the difference", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Is the d the final state of running out of something is being out of it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . You got there .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "That part is fine .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You got to out of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} so nob so no one has in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} of the , uh , professional linguists ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "they haven't {disfmarker} there was this whole thesis on \" out of \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There was ? Who ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , there {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} or there was a paper on it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Out .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There was one on {disfmarker} on \" out \" or \" out of \" ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "There was a Well , it may be just \" out \" . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I think there was \" over \" but there was also a paper on \" out \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , Lind - Susan Lindner ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah , you 're right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ? The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} \" the syrup spread out \" ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That kind of thing ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . And undoubtably there 's been reams of work about it in cognitive linguistics ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . But anyway . We 're not gonna do that between now and next week .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It 's not one of the y it 's more straightforward ones {disfmarker} forward ones to defend , so you probably don't want to use it for the purposes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "th these are {disfmarker} you 're addressing like , computational linguists ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right . Or {disfmarker} are you ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There 's gonna be four computational linguists ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . But more emphasis on the computational ? Or emphasis on the linguist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "computer it 's {disfmarker} More {disfmarker} there 's going to be the {disfmarker} just four computational linguists , by coincidence , but the rest is , whatever , biocomputing people and physicists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No no no , but not for your talk . I 'm - we 're worrying about the th the thes", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , the thesis !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , I meant this ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's just for one guy .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's computa should be very computational ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "you know , like {disfmarker} OK . So I would try to {disfmarker} I would stay away from one that involves weird construal stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and , uh , someth", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You know , it 's an obvious one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Totally weird stuff .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} the old bakery example might be nice ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "\" Is there a bakery around here \" . So if you c we really just construe it as a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Around ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , it 's the bakery itself {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "is it a building ? uh , that you want to go to ? or is it something to eat that you want to buy ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh yeah . Yeah , we 've thought about that . Right . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nnn . No . What ? \" Bakery \" can't be something you 're gonna eat .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no . The question is d do you wanna {disfmarker} do you wanna construe {disfmarker} do you wanna constr - strue", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sh", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's a speech - act .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "r Exactly . It 's because do you wanna c do you want to view the bakery as a p a place that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} i for example , if {disfmarker} y", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Where you can get baked goods .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well th well , that 's one . You want to buy something . But the other is , uh , yo you might have smelled a smell and are just curious about whether there 'd be a bakery in the neighborhood , or ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "um , pfff you know , you wonder how people here make their living , and {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of reasons why you might be asking about the existence of a bakery", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "that doesn't mean , \" I want to buy some baked goods . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But {vocalsound} um , those are interesting examples but it 's not clear that they 're mainly construal examples .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's a lot of pragmatics , there , that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's all sorts of stuff going on .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "might be beyond what you want to do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So let 's {disfmarker} so let 's think about this from the point of view of construal . So let 's first do a {disfmarker} So the metonymy thing is probably the easiest and a and actually the {disfmarker} Though , the one you have isn't quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You mean the s You mean \" the steak wants to pay \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "N no not that one , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} the sort of background . This is the t uh , page five .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "About Plato and the book ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "How much does it cost ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just beyond that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Onward .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Where is the castle ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "A castle .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "How old is it ? How much does it cost ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "To go in , that 's like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Two hundred million dollars .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . It 's not for sale . Uh . So", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that 's a good example , actually .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's good . u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But as Nancy just su suggested it 's probably ellipticus .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ellipsis .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Like , \" it \" doesn't refer to \" thing , \" it refers to acti you know , j thing standing for activ most relevant activity for a tourist {disfmarker} you could think of it that way , but .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , shoot , isn't that {disfmarker} I mean , that 's what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , my argument here is {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's the same thing as \" Plato 's on the top shelf , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "figuring that out is what this is about .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , no , I I agree .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm con you know , th that you can refer to a book of Plato by using \" Plato , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No no , I {disfmarker} I 'm agreeing that this is a good , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and you can refer back to it , and so you can {disfmarker} Castles have {disfmarker} as tourist sites , have admission fees , so you can say \" Where is the castle , how much does it cost ? \" Um . \" How far is it from here ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So , You 're also not referring to the width of the object , or so ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "www .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Can we think of a nice metaphorical use of \" where \" in the tourist 's domain ? Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you know it 's {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you can sometimes use \" where \" f for \" when \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "O", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "in the sense of , you know , um , where {disfmarker} wh where {disfmarker} where was , um , \" where was Heidelberg , um , in the Thirty Years ' War ? \" Or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You know , or some such thing . Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Like what side were they on ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Essentially , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I was like , \" Huh ? It was here . \" Like {disfmarker} {comment} Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But anyway th so there are {disfmarker} there are cases like that . Um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ah ! Or like its developmental state or something like that , you could {disfmarker} I guess you could get that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's also things like {disfmarker} I mean , s um , I guess I could ask something like \" Where can I find out about blah - blah - blah \" in a sort of {disfmarker} doesn't nece I don't necessarily have to care about the spatial location , just give me a phone number", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . There certainly is that , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and I 'll call them or something like that ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You know , \" Where could I learn its opening hours , \" or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But that 's not metaphorical .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So we 're thinking about , um , or we could also think about , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "How about \" I 'm in a hurry \" ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "State .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It i But it 's a state {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} the issue is , is that {disfmarker} it may be just a usage ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "you know , that it 's not particularly metaphorical , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . So you want a more exotic one {disfmarker} version of that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm really into {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah ! How about I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , \" I 'm in {disfmarker} I 'm in a state of exhaustion \" ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Do you really say that ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or something like that , which a tourist w Huh ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Would you really say that ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "A st uh , well , you can certainly say , um , you know , \" I 'm in overload . \" Tu - stur tourists will often say that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I I 'm really into art .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was gonna say , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , you can do that ? Really ? Of course that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's definitely a , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Fixed .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A fixed expression , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "that 's a , uh {disfmarker} Right . But . {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 're too {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of fixed expressions I don't {disfmarker} like uh \" I 'm out of sorts now ! \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Like {comment} \" I 'm in trouble ! \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} when , uh {disfmarker} just f u the data that I 've looked at so far that rec", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's tons of cases for polysemy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know , mak re making reference to buildings as institutions , as containers , as build", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "you know , whatever . Um , so ib in mus for example , in museums , you know , as a building or as something where pictures hang versus , you know , ev something that puts on exhibits , so forth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . As an institution ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't you want to use any of those ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So y you don't wanna use one that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well {disfmarker} No , but this {disfmarker} that 's what I have , you know , started doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The castle {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that old castle one is sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Metonymy , polysemy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love Van Gogh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" I wanna go see the Van Gogh . \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh geez .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Anyway , I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think the argument should be {disfmarker} uh , can be made that , you know , despite the fact that this is not the most met metaphorical domain , because people interacting with HTI systems try to be straightforward and less lyrical ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "construal still is , uh , you know , completely , um , key in terms of finding out any of these things , so , um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a reasonable point , that it {disfmarker} in this domain you 're gonna get less metaphor and more metonymy .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "We , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} I looked {disfmarker} with a student I looked at the entire database that we have on Heidelberg for cases of metonymy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And polysemy , and stuff like that . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hardly anything . So not even in descriptions w did we find anything , um , relevant .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I have to go .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Alright . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But OK this is just something we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see , um ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . s See you .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and deal with .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , well . I guess if anybody has additional suggestions ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean maybe the \" where is something \" question as a whole , you know , can be construed as , u i locational versus instructional request .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "w Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , if we 're not talk about the lexic", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Location versus what ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "instruction .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Instruction . Oh , directions ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , I thought that was {disfmarker} definitely treated as an example of construal .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah but then you 're not on the lexical level , that 's sort of one level higher .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you want a lexical example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I don't need it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , you might want both .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Also it would be nice to get {disfmarker} ultimately to get a nice mental space example ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "so , even temporal references are {disfmarker} just in the spatial domain are rare .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's easy to make up plausible ones .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "When {disfmarker} when you 're getting information on objects .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , you know {disfmarker} you know , where r Yeah . What color was this in {disfmarker} in in the nain nineteenth century .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What was this p instead of {disfmarker} wh what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} how was this painted , what color was this painted , um , was this alleyway open .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can include that also in our second , uh , data run .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "We c we can show people pictures of objects and then have then ask the system about the objects and engage in conversation on the history and the art and the architecture and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . So why don't we plan to give you feedback electronically . Wish you a good trip . All success .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "For some reason when you said \" feedback electronically \" I thought of that {disfmarker} you ever see the Simpsons where they 're {disfmarker} like the family 's got the buzzers and they buzz each other when they don't like what the other one is saying ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's the {disfmarker} first one , I think . The very very first one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It was a very early one . I don't know if it 's the first one .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "Ah , so comfortable .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Smooth .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Good . I know that he 's going to like , Taiwan and other places to eat . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "On ? Am I on ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think I 'm on ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good . Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bye .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I just had one of the most frustrating meetings of my career .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's definitely not the most frustrating meeting I 've ever had .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You a You 're {disfmarker} you remember you 're being recorded at this point .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah , so , w we didn't yet specify with whom .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So that 's why Keith and I are going to be a little dazed for the first half m the meeting .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Huh . Yeah , I 'm just gonna sit here and", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I avoided that as long as I could for you guys ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "growl .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "For which we thank you , by the way .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Are very appreciative , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I know you were {disfmarker} you were doing that , but , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , how di how d exactly did , uh , that paper lead to anti - lock brakes ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , I could tell you had a rough day , man !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I love that story .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's a great story .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh my goodness .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , um , Liz suggested we could start off by uh , doing the digits all at the same time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "All at the same time . I don't know if {disfmarker} I would get distracted and confused , probably .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "e", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Really ? Do we have to like , synchronize ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , I think you 're supposed to {disfmarker} OK . We can do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Are you being silly ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh wait do we have t", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everybody 's got different digits ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , do we have to time them at the same time or just overlapping {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You 're kidding .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no , just {disfmarker} just start whenever you want .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And any rate ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "e yeah , the", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , they {disfmarker} they have s they have the close talking microphones for each of us ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , there 's separate channels .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So when I say", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just plug one ear .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You lose .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , bye ! That was a great meeting !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So - {vocalsound} Now , uh , why ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Just to save time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Does matter for them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are we gonna start all our meetings out that way from now on ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh . Too bad . I kinda like it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , could we ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's strangely satisfying .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's a ritual .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Are we to r Just to make sure I know what 's going on , we 're talking about Robert 's thesis proposal today ? Is that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We could .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "true ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We are ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We might .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , you {disfmarker} you had s you said there were two things that you might wanna do . One was rehearse your i i talk {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh yes , and that too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} not rehearse , I mean , I have just not spent any time on it , so I can show you what I 've got , get your input on it , and maybe some suggestions , that would be great . And the same is true for the proposal . I will have time to do some revision and some additional stuff on various airplanes and trains . So , um . I don't know how much of a chance you had to actually read it", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I haven't looked at it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but you could always send me comments per electronic mail", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I will .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they will be incorporated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} It basically says , well \" this is construal \" , and then it continues to say that one could potentially build a probabilistic relational model that has some general , domain - general rules how things are construed , and then the idea is to use ontology , situation , user , and discourse model to instantiate elements in the classes of the probabilistic relational model {pause} to do some inferences in terms of what is being construed as what", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in our beloved tourism domain . But , with a focus on", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Can I s Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think I need a copy of this , yes .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , we can {disfmarker} we can {disfmarker} we can pass {disfmarker} pass my , uh {disfmarker} we can pass my extra copy around .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I is there an extra copy around ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh . He sent it . OK . You can keep it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Er , actually , my only copy , now that I think about it ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alrigh", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , I don't {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} I don't need it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but . I already read half of it , so it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um , actually this is the {disfmarker} the newest version after your comments ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , no I s I s I see this has got the castle in it , and stuff like that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe the version I didn't have that I {disfmarker} mine {disfmarker} the w did the one you sent on the email have the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That was the most recent one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Cuz I read halfway but I didn't see a castle thing .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm changing this . Just so you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But , anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um , if you would have checked your email you may have received a note from Yees asking you to send me the , uh , up - to - d", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . Oh , sorry . OK . Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "current formalism thing that you presented .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . I will . OK . OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But for this it doesn't matter . But , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We can talk about it later . That 's not even ready , so . Um , OK ! Go on t to , uh , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm making changes . \" Don't worry about that . \" OK . Mmm - mmm . Oh ! OK , sorry , go on .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And any type of comment whether it 's a spelling or a syntax or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "readability {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" . On page five .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Anyway . And y uh , email any time , but most usefully before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The twenty - first I 'm assuming .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The twenty - first ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Twenty - ninth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , this is the twenty - first .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What , today 's the twenty - first ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , better hurry up then !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh , man !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Before the twenty - ninth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The twenty - ninth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's when I 'm meeting with Wolfgang Wahlster to sell him this idea .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK ? Then I 'm also going to present a little talk at EML , about what we have done here and so of course , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm gonna start out with this slide , so the most relevant aspects of our stay here , and um , then I 'm asking them to imagine that they 're standing somewhere in Heidelberg and someone asks them in the morning {disfmarker} The Cave Forty - Five is a {disfmarker} is a well - known discotheque which is certainly not open at that {disfmarker} that time . And so", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "they 're supposed to imagine that , you know , do they think the person wants to go there , or just know where it is ? Uh , which is probably not , uh , the case in that discotheque example , or in the Bavaria example , you just want to know where it is . And so forth . So basically we can make a point that here is ontological knowledge but if it 's nine {disfmarker} nine PM in the evening then the discotheque question would be , for example , one that might ask for directions instead of just location . Um , {vocalsound} and so forth and so forth . That 's sort of motivating it . Then what have we done so far ? We had our little bit of , um , um , SmartKom stuff , that we did , um , everth", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you 've got the parser done . Sorry .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "That 's the {disfmarker} not the construction parser . That 's the , uh , tablet - based parser ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Easy parser .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and the generation outputter .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Halfway done ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You have to change those strategies ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? That 's , ten words ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , i it , you know . Maybe twelve .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Twelve ? OK . And , um , and Fey is doing the synthesis stuff as we speak . That 's all about that . Then I 'm going to talk about the data , you know these things about {disfmarker} uh , actually I have an example , probably . Two s Can you hear that ? Or should I turn the l volume on .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I could hear it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I I can hear it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I heard it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "They might not hear it in the {disfmarker} well maybe they will . I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "This was an actual , um , subject ? Ah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sounds like Fey .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But they 're {disfmarker} they 're mimicking the synthesis when they speak to the computer ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} you can observe that all the time , they 're trying to match their prosody onto the machine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh really . Interesting . Oh , it 's pretty slow .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Wh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The system breaking .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What is the s ? Oh !", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . And so forth and so forth . Um , I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing , and how we solved it , and some preliminary observations , also , um , I 'm not gonna put in the figures from Liz , but I thought it would interesting to , uh , um , point out that it 's basically the same . Um , as in every human - human telephone conversation , and the human - computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from , uh , some first , uh , observations . Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz , uh {disfmarker} how to get there , what actually is happening there today , and then maybe talk about the big picture here , e tell a little bit {disfmarker} as much as I {pause} can about the NTL story . I {disfmarker} I wa I do wanna , um {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure about this , whether I should put this in , um , that , you know , you have these two sort of different ideas that are {disfmarker} or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works , and then , {vocalsound} talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude , I 'll talk about monkeys in Italy . And , um , Srini was gonna send me some slides but he didn't do it , so from {disfmarker} but I have the paper , I can make a resume of that , and then I stole an X - schema from one of your talks I think .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . I was like , \" where 'd you get that ? \" OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that looks familiar .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "\" Looks familiar . \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think that 's Bergen , Chang , something , or the other .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , and that 's {disfmarker} now I 'm not going to bring that . So that 's basically what I have , so far , and the rest is for airplanes . So X - schemas , then , I would like to do {disfmarker} talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "End of story . Anything I forgot that we should mention ? Oh , maybe the FMRI stuff . Should I mention the fact that , um , we 're also actually started {disfmarker} going to start to look at people 's brains in a more direct way ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You certainly can . I mean I y I you know , I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You might just wanna like , tack that on , as a comment , to something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right , um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" Future activities \" something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , the time to mention it , if you mention it , is when you talk about mirror neurons , then you should talk about the more recent stuff , about the kicking", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and , you know , the {disfmarker} yeah , yeah {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} that the plan is to see to what extent the {disfmarker} you 'll get the same phenomena with stories about this , so that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and that we 're planning to do this , um , which , we are . So that 's one thing . Um . Depends . I mean , there is a , um , whole language learning story , OK ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "which , uh , actually , i i even on your five - layer slide , you {disfmarker} you 've got an old one that {disfmarker} that leaves that off .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do have it here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um . And , of course , you know , the {disfmarker} the big picture is this bit .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But , you know , it would {disfmarker} But I don't think I {disfmarker} I am capable of {disfmarker} of do pulling this off and doing justice to the matter . I mean , there is interesting stuff in her terms of how language works , so the emergentism story would be nice to be {disfmarker} you know , it would be nice to tell people how {disfmarker} what 's happening there , plus how the , uh , language learning stuff works ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so , so anyway , I {disfmarker} I agree that 's not central .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What you might wanna do is , um , and may not , but you might wanna {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} rip off a bunch of the slides on the anal there {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} we 've got various i generations of slides that show language analysis , and matching to the underlying image schemas , and , um , how the construction and simulation {disfmarker} that ho that whole th", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , th that {disfmarker} that 's c that comes up to the X - schema slide ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so basically I 'm gonna steal that from Nancy ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , I can give you a more recent {disfmarker} if you want {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "one of Nancy 's st", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "well , that might have enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , I {disfmarker} yeah , but I also have stuff you {disfmarker} trash you left over ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "your quals and your triple - AI .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The quals w the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quals slides would be fine .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could get it out of there , or some", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Which I can even email you then , you know , like there probably was a little {disfmarker} few changes , not a big deal . Yeah , you could steal anything you want , I don't care . Which you 've already done , obviously . So . Sorry", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't feel bad about it at all", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , you shouldn't .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} because you are on the , uh , title .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , that 's great , that 's great .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean on the {disfmarker} the , you 're {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} see , that 's you .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm glad to see propagation .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Propagated ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean I might even mention that this work you 're doing is sort of also with the MPI in Leipzig , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's certainly related , um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because , um , EML is building up a huge thing in Leipzig .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "might wanna say . Is it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} It 's on biocomputation . Would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's different , this is the , uh , DNA building , or someth the double helix building .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Kind of a different level of analysis .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} yeah it was {disfmarker} it turns out that if {disfmarker} if you have multiple billions of dollars , y you can do all sorts of weird things , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Wait , they 're building a building in the shape of DNA ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "is that what you said ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Roughly , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh ! Oh boy !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "O", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Including cr cross - bridges ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh my god !", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's brilliant ! Hhh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You d you really {disfmarker} now I I spent {disfmarker} the last time I was there I spent maybe two hours hearing this story which is , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Of what", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Y You definitely wanna w don't wanna waste that money on research ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "the building ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's horrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Well , no , no , y i there 's infinite money . See you th you th you then fill it with researchers .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And give them more money . They just want a fun place for them to {disfmarker} to work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And everybody gets a trampoline in their office .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , the {disfmarker} the offices are actually a little {disfmarker} the , think of um , ramps , coming out of the double helix and then you have these half - domes , glass half - domes , and the offices are in {disfmarker} in the glass half - dome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Alright , let 's stop talking about this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Does it exist yet ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "They are w now building it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , as a model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I th", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , yeah , I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good point , th th that the date , the , uh , a lot of the {disfmarker} this is interacting with , uh , people in Italy but also definitely the people in Leipzig and the {disfmarker} the b the combination of the biology and the Leipzig connection might be interesting to these guys , yeah . OK . OK . Anyway ! Enough of that , let 's talk about your thesis proposal .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , if somebody has something to say .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You might want to , uh , double - check the spellings of the authors ' names on your references , you had a few , uh , misspells in your slides , there . Like I believe you had \" Jackendorf \" .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , unless there 's a person called \" Jackendorf \" ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "On that one ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no , no .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "yeah . But that 's the only thing I noticed in there .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "In the presentation ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "In the presentation .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I 'll probably {disfmarker} I c might have {disfmarker} I 'll probably have comments for you separately , not important . Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , in the presentation here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what he was talking about .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I was ac actually worried about bibtex . Uh . No , that 's quite possible . That 's copy and paste from something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So I did note i i it looks like the , uh , metaphor didn't get in yet .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , it did , there is a reference to Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , s reference is one thing , the question is is there any place {disfmarker} Oh , did you put in something about ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Metonymy and metaphor here , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , the individual , we 'd talked about putting in something about people had , uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah , OK . Good . I see where you have it . So the top of the second {disfmarker} of pa page two you have a sentence .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But , what I meant is , I think even before you give this , to Wahlster , uh , you should , unless you put it in the text , and I don't think it 's there yet , about {disfmarker} we talked about is the , um , scalability that you get by , um , combining the constructions with the general construal mechanism . Is that in there ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , mmm . Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , so where {disfmarker} where is it , cuz I 'll have to take a look .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , but I {disfmarker} I did not focus on that aspect but , um {disfmarker} Ehhh , um , it 's just underneath , uh , um , that reference to metaphor . So it 's the last paragraph before two . So on page two , um , the main focus {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But that 's really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's not about that , is it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it s says it but it doesn't say {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker} it d it d", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Why .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , it doesn't give the punch line .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz let me tell the gang what I think the punch line is , because it 's actually important , which is , that , the constructions , that , uh , Nancy and Keith and friends are doing , uh , are , in a way , quite general but cover only base cases . And to make them apply to metaphorical cases and metonymic cases and all those things , requires this additional mechanism , of construal . And the punch line is , he claimed , that if you do this right , you can get essentially orthogonality , that if you introduce a new construction at {disfmarker} at the base level , it should com uh , interact with all the metonymies and metaphors so that all of the projections of it also should work .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "And , similarly , if you introduce a new metaphor , it should then uh , compose with all of the constructions .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "And it {disfmarker} to the extent that that 's true then {disfmarker} then it 's a big win over anything that exists .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So does that mean instead of having tons and tons of rules in your context - free grammar you just have these base constructs and then a general mechanism for coercing them .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So that , you know , for example , uh , in the metaphor case , that you have a kind of direct idea of a source , path , and goal and any metaphorical one {disfmarker} and abstract goals and all that sort of stuff {comment} {disfmarker} you can do the same grammar .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And it is the same grammar . But , um , the trick is that the {disfmarker} the way the construction 's written it requires that the object of the preposition for example be a container . Well , \" trouble \" isn't a container , but it gets constr construed as a c container .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Et cetera . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's where this , um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So with construal you don't have to have a construction for every possible thing that can fill the rule .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So 's it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a very big deal , i i in this framework , and the thesis proposal as it stands doesn't , um , I don't think , say that as clearly as it could .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No , it doesn't say it at all . No . Even though {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One could argue what {disfmarker} if there are basic cases , even . I mean , it seems like nothing is context - free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , nothing is context - free , but there are basic cases . That is , um , there are physical containers , there are physical paths , there {disfmarker} you know , et cetera .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But \" walked into the cafe and ordered a drink , \" and \" walked into the cafe and broke his nose , \" that 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , it doesn't mean that they 're unambiguous .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , a cafe can be construed as a container , or it can be construed you know as {disfmarker} as a obstacle ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "or as some physical object . So there are multiple construals . And in fact that 's part of what has to be done . This is why there 's this interaction between the analysis and the construal .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The b the {disfmarker} the double arrow .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , uh , yeah , I mean , it doesn't magically make ambiguity go away .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it does say that , uh , if you walked into the cafe and broke your nose , then you are construing the cafe as an obstacle .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if that 's not consistent with other things , then you 've gotta reject that reading .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You con {disfmarker} you conditioned me with your first sentence , and so I thought , \" Why would he walk into the cafe and then somehow break his nose ? \" uh , oh , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "He slipped on the wet floor .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You don't find that usage , uh {disfmarker} uh , I checked for it in the Brown national corpus .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The \" walk into it \" never really means , w as in walked smack {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But \" run into \" does .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but , y y if you find \" walked smacked into the cafe \" or \" slammed into the wall \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , no , but \" run into \" does .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Because you will find \" run into , \" uh ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Cars run into telephone poles all the time .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well , or \" into the cafe \" for that m", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "you know {disfmarker} \" His car ran into the cafe . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or you can run into an old friend , or run .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , you can \" run into \" in that sense too .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , \" run into \" might even be more impact sense than , you know , container sense .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But , uh , Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Depends .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Like , \" run into an old friend \" , it probably needs its own construction . I mean , uh , you know , George would have I 'm sure some exa complicated ex reason why it really was an instance of something else", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and maybe it is , but , um , there are idioms and my guess is that 's one of them , but , um {disfmarker} I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "All contact . I mean , there there 's contact that doesn't {disfmarker} social contact , whatever . I mean .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sudden surprising contact ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Right . i Yeah , it 's more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Forceful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But of course , no , i i I mean it has a life of its own . It 's sort of partially inspired by the spatial {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , this is this motivated {disfmarker} but yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "oh yeah , mo for sure , motivated , but then you can't parse on motivated .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Too bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You should get a T - shirt that says that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there 's lots of things you could make T - shirts out of , but , uh , this has gotten {disfmarker} I mean wh We don't need the words to that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Pro - probably not your marks in the kitchen , today .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What ? Oh , no no no no no no no no no , we 're not going there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} not your marks .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so , um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "In other news .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "anything else you want to ask us about the thesis proposal , you got {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could look at a particular thing and give you feedback on it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} actually {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i what would have been really nice is to find an example for all of this , uh , from our domain . So maybe if we w if we can make one up {pause} now , that would be c incredibly helpful .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , w where it should illustrate", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} wh when you say all this , do you mean , like , I don't know , the related work stuff ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "How {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "as well as , mappings ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "w Well we have , for example , a canonical use of something", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right {disfmarker} right {disfmarker} r", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and y it 's , you know , we have some constructions and then it 's construed as something , and then we {disfmarker} we may get the same constructions with a metaphorical use that 's also relevant to the {disfmarker} to the domain .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , f let 's {disfmarker} let 's suppose you use \" in \" and \" on \" . I mean , that 's what you started with .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So \" in the bus \" and \" on the bus , \" um , that 's actually a little tricky in English because to some extent they 're synonyms . OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I had two hours w with George on this , so it ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , what did he say .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Did you ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Join the club .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Oh , h that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" On the bus \" is a m is a metaphorical metonymy that relates some meta path metaphorically and you 're on {disfmarker} on that path and th w I mean it 's {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} there 's a platform notion ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I believe all that , it 's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ? \" he 's on the {disfmarker} standing on the bus waving to me . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But th the regular as we speak \" J Johno was on the bus to New York , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "um , uh , he 's {disfmarker} that 's , uh , what did I call it here , the transportation schema , something ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "where you can be on the first flight , on the second flight ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and you can be , you know , on the wagon .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} that may or may not be what you {disfmarker} what you want to do . I mean you could do something much simpler", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "like \" under the bus , \" or something , where {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} unfortunately , this is not really something a tourist would ever say . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , unless he was repairing it or something ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , but OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So in terms of the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We had {disfmarker} we had {disfmarker} initially we 'd {disfmarker} started discussing the \" out of film . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And there 's a lot of \" out of \" analysis , so , um ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "could we capture that with a different construal of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's a little {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} we 've thought about it before , uh t uh {disfmarker} to use the examples in other papers , and it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little complicated . Cuz you 're like , it 's a state of {disfmarker} there 's resource ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Out of {disfmarker} out of film , in particular .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right , and like , what is film ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "the state {disfmarker} you know . You 're out of the state of having film , right ? and somehow film is standing for the re the resour the state of having some resource is just labeled as that resource .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah , I mean ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's a little bit {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} and plus the fact that there 's also s I mean , can you say , like , \" The film ran out \" you know , or , maybe you could say something like \" The film is out \"", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , is film the trajector ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so like the {disfmarker} the film went away from where it should be , namely with you , or something , right ? You know . The {disfmarker} the film {disfmarker} the film is gone , right ? Um , I never really knew what was going on , I mean I {disfmarker} I find it sort of a little bit farfetched to say that {disfmarker} that \" I 'm out of film \" means that I have left the state of having film or something like that ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's weird . That {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Or , \" having \" is also , um , associated with location ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "so if the film left , you know {disfmarker} state is being near film .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So running {disfmarker} running out of something is different from being out of somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or being out of something as , uh {disfmarker} as well . So \" running out of it \" definitely has a process aspect to it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But that 's from run , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "b that 's OK ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} b but the difference", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Is the d the final state of running out of something is being out of it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . You got there .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "That part is fine .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You got to out of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} so nob so no one has in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} of the , uh , professional linguists ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "they haven't {disfmarker} there was this whole thesis on \" out of \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There was ? Who ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , there {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} or there was a paper on it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Out .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Huh ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There was one on {disfmarker} on \" out \" or \" out of \" ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "There was a Well , it may be just \" out \" . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I think there was \" over \" but there was also a paper on \" out \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , Lind - Susan Lindner ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah , you 're right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ? The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} \" the syrup spread out \" ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That kind of thing ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . And undoubtably there 's been reams of work about it in cognitive linguistics ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . But anyway . We 're not gonna do that between now and next week .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It 's not one of the y it 's more straightforward ones {disfmarker} forward ones to defend , so you probably don't want to use it for the purposes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "th these are {disfmarker} you 're addressing like , computational linguists ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right . Or {disfmarker} are you ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There 's gonna be four computational linguists ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . But more emphasis on the computational ? Or emphasis on the linguist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "computer it 's {disfmarker} More {disfmarker} there 's going to be the {disfmarker} just four computational linguists , by coincidence , but the rest is , whatever , biocomputing people and physicists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No no no , but not for your talk . I 'm - we 're worrying about the th the thes", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , the thesis !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , I meant this ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's just for one guy .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's computa should be very computational ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "you know , like {disfmarker} OK . So I would try to {disfmarker} I would stay away from one that involves weird construal stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and , uh , someth", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You know , it 's an obvious one {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Totally weird stuff .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} the old bakery example might be nice ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "\" Is there a bakery around here \" . So if you c we really just construe it as a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Around ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , it 's the bakery itself {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "is it a building ? uh , that you want to go to ? or is it something to eat that you want to buy ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh yeah . Yeah , we 've thought about that . Right . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nnn . No . What ? \" Bakery \" can't be something you 're gonna eat .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No , no . The question is d do you wanna {disfmarker} do you wanna construe {disfmarker} do you wanna constr - strue", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sh", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "It 's a speech - act .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "r Exactly . It 's because do you wanna c do you want to view the bakery as a p a place that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} i for example , if {disfmarker} y", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Where you can get baked goods .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well th well , that 's one . You want to buy something . But the other is , uh , yo you might have smelled a smell and are just curious about whether there 'd be a bakery in the neighborhood , or ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "um , pfff you know , you wonder how people here make their living , and {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of reasons why you might be asking about the existence of a bakery", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "that doesn't mean , \" I want to buy some baked goods . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But {vocalsound} um , those are interesting examples but it 's not clear that they 're mainly construal examples .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's a lot of pragmatics , there , that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's all sorts of stuff going on .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "might be beyond what you want to do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So let 's {disfmarker} so let 's think about this from the point of view of construal . So let 's first do a {disfmarker} So the metonymy thing is probably the easiest and a and actually the {disfmarker} Though , the one you have isn't quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You mean the s You mean \" the steak wants to pay \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "N no not that one , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} the sort of background . This is the t uh , page five .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "About Plato and the book ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "How much does it cost ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just beyond that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Onward .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Where is the castle ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "A castle .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "How old is it ? How much does it cost ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "To go in , that 's like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Two hundred million dollars .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . It 's not for sale . Uh . So", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think that 's a good example , actually .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's good . u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But as Nancy just su suggested it 's probably ellipticus .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ellipsis .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Like , \" it \" doesn't refer to \" thing , \" it refers to acti you know , j thing standing for activ most relevant activity for a tourist {disfmarker} you could think of it that way , but .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , shoot , isn't that {disfmarker} I mean , that 's what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , my argument here is {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's the same thing as \" Plato 's on the top shelf , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "figuring that out is what this is about .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , no , I I agree .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm con you know , th that you can refer to a book of Plato by using \" Plato , \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No no , I {disfmarker} I 'm agreeing that this is a good , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and you can refer back to it , and so you can {disfmarker} Castles have {disfmarker} as tourist sites , have admission fees , so you can say \" Where is the castle , how much does it cost ? \" Um . \" How far is it from here ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So , You 're also not referring to the width of the object , or so ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "www .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Can we think of a nice metaphorical use of \" where \" in the tourist 's domain ? Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you know it 's {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you can sometimes use \" where \" f for \" when \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "O", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "in the sense of , you know , um , where {disfmarker} wh where {disfmarker} where was , um , \" where was Heidelberg , um , in the Thirty Years ' War ? \" Or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You know , or some such thing . Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Like what side were they on ,", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Essentially , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I was like , \" Huh ? It was here . \" Like {disfmarker} {comment} Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But anyway th so there are {disfmarker} there are cases like that . Um ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ah ! Or like its developmental state or something like that , you could {disfmarker} I guess you could get that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's also things like {disfmarker} I mean , s um , I guess I could ask something like \" Where can I find out about blah - blah - blah \" in a sort of {disfmarker} doesn't nece I don't necessarily have to care about the spatial location , just give me a phone number", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . There certainly is that , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and I 'll call them or something like that ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "You know , \" Where could I learn its opening hours , \" or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "But that 's not metaphorical .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So we 're thinking about , um , or we could also think about , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "How about \" I 'm in a hurry \" ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "State .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It i But it 's a state {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} the issue is , is that {disfmarker} it may be just a usage ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "you know , that it 's not particularly metaphorical , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right . So you want a more exotic one {disfmarker} version of that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm really into {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah ! How about I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , \" I 'm in {disfmarker} I 'm in a state of exhaustion \" ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Do you really say that ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or something like that , which a tourist w Huh ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Would you really say that ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "A st uh , well , you can certainly say , um , you know , \" I 'm in overload . \" Tu - stur tourists will often say that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I I 'm really into art .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I was gonna say , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , you can do that ? Really ? Of course that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's definitely a , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Fixed .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A fixed expression , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "that 's a , uh {disfmarker} Right . But . {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 're too {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of fixed expressions I don't {disfmarker} like uh \" I 'm out of sorts now ! \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Like {comment} \" I 'm in trouble ! \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} when , uh {disfmarker} just f u the data that I 've looked at so far that rec", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's tons of cases for polysemy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know , mak re making reference to buildings as institutions , as containers , as build", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "you know , whatever . Um , so ib in mus for example , in museums , you know , as a building or as something where pictures hang versus , you know , ev something that puts on exhibits , so forth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . As an institution ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't you want to use any of those ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So y you don't wanna use one that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well {disfmarker} No , but this {disfmarker} that 's what I have , you know , started doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The castle {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that old castle one is sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Metonymy , polysemy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love Van Gogh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" I wanna go see the Van Gogh . \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh geez .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Anyway , I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think the argument should be {disfmarker} uh , can be made that , you know , despite the fact that this is not the most met metaphorical domain , because people interacting with HTI systems try to be straightforward and less lyrical ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "construal still is , uh , you know , completely , um , key in terms of finding out any of these things , so , um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a reasonable point , that it {disfmarker} in this domain you 're gonna get less metaphor and more metonymy .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "We , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} I looked {disfmarker} with a student I looked at the entire database that we have on Heidelberg for cases of metonymy .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And polysemy , and stuff like that . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hardly anything . So not even in descriptions w did we find anything , um , relevant .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I have to go .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Alright . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But OK this is just something we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see , um ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . s See you .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and deal with .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , well . I guess if anybody has additional suggestions ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean maybe the \" where is something \" question as a whole , you know , can be construed as , u i locational versus instructional request .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "w Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , if we 're not talk about the lexic", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Location versus what ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "instruction .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Instruction . Oh , directions ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , I thought that was {disfmarker} definitely treated as an example of construal .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah but then you 're not on the lexical level , that 's sort of one level higher .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you want a lexical example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I don't need it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , you might want both .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Also it would be nice to get {disfmarker} ultimately to get a nice mental space example ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "so , even temporal references are {disfmarker} just in the spatial domain are rare .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's easy to make up plausible ones .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "When {disfmarker} when you 're getting information on objects .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , you know {disfmarker} you know , where r Yeah . What color was this in {disfmarker} in in the nain nineteenth century .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "What was this p instead of {disfmarker} wh what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} how was this painted , what color was this painted , um , was this alleyway open .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can include that also in our second , uh , data run .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "We c we can show people pictures of objects and then have then ask the system about the objects and engage in conversation on the history and the art and the architecture and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . So why don't we plan to give you feedback electronically . Wish you a good trip . All success .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "For some reason when you said \" feedback electronically \" I thought of that {disfmarker} you ever see the Simpsons where they 're {disfmarker} like the family 's got the buzzers and they buzz each other when they don't like what the other one is saying ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's the {disfmarker} first one , I think . The very very first one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It was a very early one . I don't know if it 's the first one .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "technical accessoire ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A nice one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Something else ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Broken arm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have one brother and one sister", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's advantage .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but one other question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual controllers , eh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How how much will it cost ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , more expensive maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How much ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Some some efficient .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Seems to be quite complex .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but then w Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Comple", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where is the controller ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A microphone maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You just want to interact with television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you use your command", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and you do s your gesture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Devic", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More features , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no one would would be interested .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we can send email from it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need to tune it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , for example the goo y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Tha", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not too expensive too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the problem ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Working ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , working design ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Are you inst", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Participant one . Participant one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface concept . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I can say it to you without .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "then present it later .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "exac", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In fact , I don't know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it can be interesting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what about the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's fashion , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you got email ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pla S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "device , so um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe will attract", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "pro-ecology consumers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Case .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Pla", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the base .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's it's natural .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But still y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's natural", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Google and fancy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What interface ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "adding some vocal commands .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Simple ones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If possible .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Need it to be , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you will have to model model something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yep", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no more questions , we can close the session .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "technical accessoire ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A nice one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Something else ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Broken arm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have one brother and one sister", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's advantage .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but one other question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual controllers , eh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How how much will it cost ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , more expensive maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How much ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Some some efficient .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Seems to be quite complex .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but then w Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Comple", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where is the controller ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A microphone maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You just want to interact with television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you use your command", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and you do s your gesture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Devic", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More features , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no one would would be interested .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we can send email from it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need to tune it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , for example the goo y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Tha", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not too expensive too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the problem ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Working ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , working design ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Are you inst", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Participant one . Participant one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface concept . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I can say it to you without .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "then present it later .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "exac", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In fact , I don't know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it can be interesting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what about the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's fashion , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you got email ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pla S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "device , so um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe will attract", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "pro-ecology consumers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Case .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Pla", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the base .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's it's natural .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But still y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's natural", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Google and fancy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What interface ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "adding some vocal commands .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Simple ones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If possible .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Need it to be , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you will have to model model something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yep", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no more questions , we can close the session .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "technical accessoire ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A nice one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Something else ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Broken arm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have one brother and one sister", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's advantage .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but one other question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual controllers , eh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How how much will it cost ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , more expensive maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How much ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Some some efficient .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Seems to be quite complex .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but then w Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Comple", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where is the controller ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A microphone maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You just want to interact with television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you use your command", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and you do s your gesture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Devic", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More features , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no one would would be interested .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we can send email from it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need to tune it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , for example the goo y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Tha", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not too expensive too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the problem ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Working ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , working design ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Are you inst", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Participant one . Participant one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface concept . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I can say it to you without .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "then present it later .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "exac", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In fact , I don't know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it can be interesting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what about the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's fashion , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you got email ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pla S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "device , so um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe will attract", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "pro-ecology consumers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Case .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Pla", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the base .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's it's natural .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But still y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's natural", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Google and fancy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What interface ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "adding some vocal commands .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Simple ones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If possible .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Need it to be , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you will have to model model something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yep", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no more questions , we can close the session .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "technical accessoire ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A nice one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Something else ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Broken arm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have one brother and one sister", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's advantage .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but one other question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual controllers , eh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How how much will it cost ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , more expensive maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How much ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Some some efficient .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Seems to be quite complex .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but then w Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Comple", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where is the controller ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A microphone maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You just want to interact with television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you use your command", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and you do s your gesture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Devic", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More features , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no one would would be interested .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we can send email from it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need to tune it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , for example the goo y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Tha", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not too expensive too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the problem ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Working ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , working design ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Are you inst", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Participant one . Participant one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface concept . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I can say it to you without .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "then present it later .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "exac", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In fact , I don't know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it can be interesting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what about the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's fashion , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you got email ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pla S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "device , so um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe will attract", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "pro-ecology consumers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Case .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Pla", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the base .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's it's natural .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But still y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's natural", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Google and fancy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What interface ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "adding some vocal commands .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Simple ones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If possible .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Need it to be , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you will have to model model something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yep", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no more questions , we can close the session .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "technical accessoire ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A nice one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Something else ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Broken arm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have one brother and one sister", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's advantage .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but one other question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual controllers , eh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How how much will it cost ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , more expensive maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How much ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Some some efficient .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Seems to be quite complex .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but then w Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Comple", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where is the controller ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A microphone maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You just want to interact with television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you use your command", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and you do s your gesture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Devic", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More features , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no one would would be interested .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we can send email from it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need to tune it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , for example the goo y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Tha", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not too expensive too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the problem ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Working ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , working design ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Are you inst", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Participant one . Participant one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface concept . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I can say it to you without .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "then present it later .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "exac", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In fact , I don't know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it can be interesting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what about the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's fashion , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you got email ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pla S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "device , so um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe will attract", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "pro-ecology consumers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Case .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Pla", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the base .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's it's natural .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But still y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's natural", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Google and fancy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What interface ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "adding some vocal commands .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Simple ones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If possible .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Need it to be , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you will have to model model something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yep", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no more questions , we can close the session .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "technical accessoire ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A nice one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Something else ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Broken arm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have one brother and one sister", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's advantage .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but one other question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual controllers , eh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How how much will it cost ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , more expensive maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How much ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Some some efficient .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Seems to be quite complex .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but then w Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Comple", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where is the controller ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A microphone maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You just want to interact with television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you use your command", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and you do s your gesture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Devic", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More features , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no one would would be interested .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we can send email from it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need to tune it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , for example the goo y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Tha", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not too expensive too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the problem ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Working ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , working design ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Are you inst", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Participant one . Participant one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface concept . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I can say it to you without .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "then present it later .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "exac", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In fact , I don't know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it can be interesting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what about the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's fashion , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you got email ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pla S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "device , so um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe will attract", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "pro-ecology consumers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Case .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Pla", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the base .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's it's natural .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But still y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's natural", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Google and fancy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What interface ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "adding some vocal commands .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Simple ones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If possible .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Need it to be , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you will have to model model something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yep", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no more questions , we can close the session .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "technical accessoire ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A nice one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Something else ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Broken arm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have one brother and one sister", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's advantage .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but one other question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual controllers , eh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How how much will it cost ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , more expensive maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How much ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Some some efficient .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Seems to be quite complex .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but then w Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Comple", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where is the controller ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A microphone maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You just want to interact with television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you use your command", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and you do s your gesture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Devic", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More features , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no one would would be interested .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we can send email from it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need to tune it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , for example the goo y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Tha", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not too expensive too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the problem ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Working ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , working design ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Are you inst", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Participant one . Participant one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface concept . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I can say it to you without .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "then present it later .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "exac", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In fact , I don't know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it can be interesting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what about the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's fashion , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you got email ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pla S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "device , so um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe will attract", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "pro-ecology consumers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Case .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Pla", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the base .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's it's natural .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But still y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's natural", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Google and fancy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What interface ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "adding some vocal commands .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Simple ones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If possible .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Need it to be , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you will have to model model something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yep", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no more questions , we can close the session .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "technical accessoire ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A nice one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Something else ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Broken arm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have one brother and one sister", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's advantage .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but one other question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual controllers , eh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How how much will it cost ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , more expensive maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How much ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Some some efficient .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Seems to be quite complex .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but then w Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Comple", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where is the controller ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A microphone maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You just want to interact with television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you use your command", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and you do s your gesture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Devic", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More features , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no one would would be interested .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we can send email from it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need to tune it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , for example the goo y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Tha", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not too expensive too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the problem ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Working ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , working design ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Are you inst", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Participant one . Participant one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface concept . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I can say it to you without .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "then present it later .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "exac", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In fact , I don't know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it can be interesting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what about the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's fashion , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you got email ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pla S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "device , so um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe will attract", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "pro-ecology consumers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Case .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Pla", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the base .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's it's natural .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But still y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's natural", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Google and fancy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What interface ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "adding some vocal commands .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Simple ones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If possible .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Need it to be , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you will have to model model something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yep", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no more questions , we can close the session .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "technical accessoire ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A nice one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Something else ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Broken arm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have one brother and one sister", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's advantage .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but one other question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual controllers , eh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How how much will it cost ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , more expensive maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How much ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Some some efficient .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Seems to be quite complex .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but then w Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Comple", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where is the controller ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A microphone maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You just want to interact with television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you use your command", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and you do s your gesture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Devic", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More features , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no one would would be interested .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we can send email from it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need to tune it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , for example the goo y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Tha", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not too expensive too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the problem ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Working ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , working design ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Are you inst", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Participant one . Participant one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface concept . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I can say it to you without .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "then present it later .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "exac", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In fact , I don't know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it can be interesting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what about the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's fashion , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you got email ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pla S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "device , so um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe will attract", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "pro-ecology consumers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Case .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Pla", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the base .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's it's natural .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But still y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's natural", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Google and fancy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What interface ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "adding some vocal commands .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Simple ones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If possible .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Need it to be , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you will have to model model something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yep", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no more questions , we can close the session .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "technical accessoire ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "This .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A nice one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Something else ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Broken arm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have one brother and one sister", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's advantage .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but one other question .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual controllers , eh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How how much will it cost ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , more expensive maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "How much ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Some some efficient .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Seems to be quite complex .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but then w Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Comple", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Where is the controller ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A microphone maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You just want to interact with television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you use your command", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and you do s your gesture .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Devic", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More features , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no one would would be interested .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we can send email from it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need to tune it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , for example the goo y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Tha", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not too expensive too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the problem ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Working ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , working design ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What ? Are you inst", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Participant one . Participant one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Interface concept . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I can say it to you without .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "then present it later .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "exac", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , true .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In fact , I don't know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "no ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Special for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it can be interesting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And what about the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No it's fashion , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you got email ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Pla S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "device , so um", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "maybe will attract", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "pro-ecology consumers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Case .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Would some {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Pla", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the base .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's it's natural .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But still y", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's natural", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's still fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Google and fancy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . It's good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What interface ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "adding some vocal commands .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Simple ones ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , fruits .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If possible .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Need it to be , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so you will have to model model something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yep", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "no more questions , we can close the session .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bonjour .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Come on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check check check check .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which one was mine ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's me .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "just tell us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Shall I start ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Spongy , like sponge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So rubber , kind of .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh soft materials .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's like a sponge .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Soft , sponge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's also a stress-ball .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How are you gonna make it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "R_ soft .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Intro", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll check what they exact mean .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and it's easy to implement .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We have to decide on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , probably too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll I'll give you my design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the focus is on these two parts .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Scroll .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "By just putting the volume on the side .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the channels as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and just channel buttons here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's better .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're on top ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Those two , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So that's something we have to decide on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Square . Like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "looking , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So the colours also .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And still trans", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Still still transparent .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well one of the options .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or just uh release one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you can still th look through it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I uh I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's better prob", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "With the hard hard buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , on one level .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the rounds of it from softer s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They can choose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or no", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different , I think , also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue or red .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Whatever you want it , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I can change the colour of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Then uh some more technical things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm sure we can fit in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I guess we j we just need that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Re recharger . Base station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's dark in the room . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's just batteries ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's cheaper {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we need uh two D_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think just the volume is enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because you scroll too fast .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh just sk", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We haven't decided yet .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "L", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just can't imagine it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "more rounded .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . We have batteries .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think I'll just check it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's pretty much it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a flashy light .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User interface concept .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno either .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should did it here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's for th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're staying here ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe , I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's probably better .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think in middle .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the numbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Numbers , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Use the dz", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , of course uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it's exactly th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every remote control's uh different .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's s so simple", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More that uh kind of style .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could put it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so top down .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The docking station ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just a recharger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Here you see one that's very round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just round it up {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just just the corners .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think i", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Shapes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Curves , curves .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You've more {gap} there as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That is for elderly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Doesn't have to be .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Rubber spongy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "spongy and fruity .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongeball kinda .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , they're all the same .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "compared to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll be able to do a better job .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll see it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "S {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "advanced chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it w {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ma", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "does it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But i it's a separate chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to stop now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We have to stop it now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bonjour .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Come on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check check check check .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which one was mine ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's me .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "just tell us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Shall I start ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Spongy , like sponge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So rubber , kind of .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh soft materials .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's like a sponge .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Soft , sponge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's also a stress-ball .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How are you gonna make it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "R_ soft .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Intro", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll check what they exact mean .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and it's easy to implement .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We have to decide on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , probably too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll I'll give you my design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the focus is on these two parts .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Scroll .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "By just putting the volume on the side .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the channels as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and just channel buttons here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's better .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're on top ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Those two , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So that's something we have to decide on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Square . Like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "looking , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So the colours also .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And still trans", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Still still transparent .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well one of the options .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or just uh release one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you can still th look through it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I uh I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's better prob", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "With the hard hard buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , on one level .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the rounds of it from softer s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They can choose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or no", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different , I think , also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue or red .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Whatever you want it , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I can change the colour of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Then uh some more technical things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm sure we can fit in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I guess we j we just need that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Re recharger . Base station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's dark in the room . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's just batteries ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's cheaper {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we need uh two D_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think just the volume is enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because you scroll too fast .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh just sk", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We haven't decided yet .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "L", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just can't imagine it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "more rounded .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . We have batteries .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think I'll just check it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's pretty much it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a flashy light .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User interface concept .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno either .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should did it here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's for th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're staying here ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe , I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's probably better .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think in middle .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the numbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Numbers , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Use the dz", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , of course uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it's exactly th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every remote control's uh different .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's s so simple", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More that uh kind of style .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could put it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so top down .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The docking station ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just a recharger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Here you see one that's very round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just round it up {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just just the corners .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think i", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Shapes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Curves , curves .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You've more {gap} there as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That is for elderly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Doesn't have to be .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Rubber spongy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "spongy and fruity .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongeball kinda .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , they're all the same .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "compared to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll be able to do a better job .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll see it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "S {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "advanced chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it w {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ma", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "does it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But i it's a separate chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to stop now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We have to stop it now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bonjour .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Come on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check check check check .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which one was mine ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's me .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "just tell us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Shall I start ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Spongy , like sponge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So rubber , kind of .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh soft materials .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's like a sponge .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Soft , sponge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's also a stress-ball .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How are you gonna make it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "R_ soft .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Intro", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll check what they exact mean .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and it's easy to implement .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We have to decide on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , probably too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll I'll give you my design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the focus is on these two parts .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Scroll .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "By just putting the volume on the side .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the channels as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and just channel buttons here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's better .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're on top ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Those two , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So that's something we have to decide on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Square . Like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "looking , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So the colours also .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And still trans", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Still still transparent .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well one of the options .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or just uh release one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you can still th look through it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I uh I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's better prob", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "With the hard hard buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , on one level .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the rounds of it from softer s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They can choose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or no", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different , I think , also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue or red .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Whatever you want it , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I can change the colour of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Then uh some more technical things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm sure we can fit in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I guess we j we just need that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Re recharger . Base station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's dark in the room . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's just batteries ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's cheaper {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we need uh two D_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think just the volume is enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because you scroll too fast .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh just sk", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We haven't decided yet .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "L", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just can't imagine it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "more rounded .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . We have batteries .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think I'll just check it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's pretty much it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a flashy light .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User interface concept .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno either .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should did it here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's for th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're staying here ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe , I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's probably better .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think in middle .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the numbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Numbers , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Use the dz", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , of course uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it's exactly th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every remote control's uh different .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's s so simple", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More that uh kind of style .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could put it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so top down .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The docking station ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just a recharger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Here you see one that's very round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just round it up {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just just the corners .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think i", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Shapes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Curves , curves .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You've more {gap} there as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That is for elderly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Doesn't have to be .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Rubber spongy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "spongy and fruity .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongeball kinda .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , they're all the same .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "compared to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll be able to do a better job .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll see it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "S {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "advanced chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it w {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ma", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "does it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But i it's a separate chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to stop now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We have to stop it now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bonjour .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Come on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Check check check check .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which one was mine ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's me .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The minutes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm no .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "just tell us .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Shall I start ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Spongy , like sponge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So rubber , kind of .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh soft materials .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's like a sponge .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Soft , sponge .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's also a stress-ball .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "How are you gonna make it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "R_ soft .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Intro", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'll check what they exact mean .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and it's easy to implement .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We have to decide on that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , probably too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll I'll give you my design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the focus is on these two parts .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , why not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Scroll .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "By just putting the volume on the side .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the channels as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and just channel buttons here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's better .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're on top ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Those two , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "To use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So that's something we have to decide on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Square . Like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "looking , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So the colours also .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And still trans", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Still still transparent .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well one of the options .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or just uh release one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you can still th look through it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I uh I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's better prob", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "With the hard hard buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , on one level .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the rounds of it from softer s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "They can choose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or no", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Different , I think , also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue or red .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Whatever you want it , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it can .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I can change the colour of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Then uh some more technical things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm sure we can fit in .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I guess we j we just need that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Re recharger . Base station .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah cool . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's dark in the room . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's just batteries ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "that's cheaper {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we need uh two D_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I think just the volume is enough .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because you scroll too fast .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh just sk", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We haven't decided yet .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "L", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I just can't imagine it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "more rounded .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . We have batteries .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think I'll just check it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's pretty much it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a flashy light .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User interface concept .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno either .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should did it here ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's for th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we're staying here ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe , I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it's probably better .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think in middle .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's the numbers .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Numbers , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Use the dz", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , of course uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But it's exactly th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every remote control's uh different .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's s so simple", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I dunno .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the LED .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "More that uh kind of style .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could put it like that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so top down .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The docking station ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , just a recharger .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Which w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Here you see one that's very round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Of the remote control ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Just round it up {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , just just the corners .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think i", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Shapes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Curves , curves .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You've more {gap} there as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That is for elderly .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Doesn't have to be .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Rubber spongy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "spongy and fruity .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Spongeball kinda .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , they're all the same .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "compared to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , we could do that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll be able to do a better job .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'll see it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "S {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "advanced chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it w {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Ma", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "does it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But i it's a separate chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We have to stop now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We have to stop it now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]