wjbmattingly/ushmm-testimonies · Datasets at Hugging Face

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RG-50.549.05.0005	206	Did there come...	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	207	Maybe that’s good, maybe it’s bad. I don’t know.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	208	Did there come a point when you felt that you had to talk about your experiences, your memories?	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	209	Well it came after, many years later. The very first time, I think I talked about it, that we were going to Cincinnati, to an art gallery, and Mary K. was with me and another friend. It was a two hour ride and somehow it came up and then I told them. When I used to walk with neighbors and friends and they have known me forever. So, years and years ago, we would walk for maybe 45 minutes and one of my friends, not Jewish, asked me if I would talk about it. So, I said, “Pll be glad to,” and for many, many weeks that we would walk, we stopped at a certain point and then they wanted to know the rest of it. So, by now it doesn’t give me any problems to talk about it. When some of the schools ask me, I did. I couldn’t begin to tell you now how many times I did speak in schools. Once at the Catherine Spalding College, once at St. Andrews Church and mainly then on Jewish situations, of course. And they might have a Jewish student there or not. And now, I’m completely at ease with myself and I can talk about it. Once ina while I kind of get a lump in my throat, you know, but I can do it.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	210	Did you...	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	211	And I’m glad that I can, because Sandy’s sister, the one who is coming from Argentina now, she completely held it back all the time. So much that if the subject comes up, she just completely bursts out crying. She couldn’t talk to her kids about it... they know... or to her grandchildren about it. And her granddaughter said, “Why don’t you make a tape of it,” because she was with me one year. Sylvia, she’s now about twenty some years old. She told her grandmother, “Why don’t you make a tape of it? Maybe it would be easier for you.” And everybody tells this to everybody, but it’s not easy to do. I would have never just done it, if Mary K. wouldn’t have insisted.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	212	Was it important to you, personally to do it?	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	213	I, I, it’s nice. Like, for example, I have a neighbor two houses down, who is from Vienna and who left Vienna, they took all of her things away. And she ended up in Shanghai. I said, “Why don’t you tell your story?” She can not. And all alone, unless somebody asks you, it’s very hard to do that. But I’m glad. I am glad that I did it. And I’m glad that there is a record of it, maybe for the future generation. I mean, I don’t care whether I would have it or not, but... so, I think it’s... and that’s why they make such a big deal about that now. Of course, a lot of people go back with transports to Auschwitz, and so I don’t have any desire to do that.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	214	How do you, how do you feel about living in Louisville? 38	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	215	I like Louisville. I do like it and I don’t. Wouldn’t like to live any other place. I’ve not been in too many places in the United States, but Louisville 1s a nice town. And we made a lot of friends. Now that we’re getting older we don’t see them as much anymore. And luckily one daughter lives here and the two grandchildren, you know. I have in fact, a little one will have a birthday tomorrow. He’ll be seven years old. And I’m invited to go to a cave for the birthday party. But I like it here. I mean I am satisfied and I wouldn’t want to live any other place anymore... End of Tape 3, Side A 39 Tape 3, Side B	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	216	...Democrats, okay? Now if when we were younger and we would get together and like let’s see, during some of the presidential elections, we would all get together and everybody was for that same person. We used to think everybody, like long, long time ago, Stevenson was running and we all liked him. Then he didn’t make it and we were so surprised. So we don’t have any, non- liberal friends, but you run into a lot of people like that. And that doesn’t mean that we are not friendly with them. But as we get older we don’t really... I used to have parties and now when my kids come home, we get together. Pll be pretty busy, so I’m glad you came today. Cause from tomorrow on, I'll be kind of busy with my daughter and her 13-year-old is coming from Seattle. And they usually... my kids here come over. And I was just now in Nashville with Robert, so... excuse me, So...	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	217	You keep pretty busy.	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	218	Yeah, I keep busy, and I...	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	219	When you first moved to Louisville, how did you integrate into the community here? How did you make friends? And was it with the Jewish community only?	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	220	Well for a while, no, not really. We lived in the South end and we didn’t, some people through his work would come and look us up and so on. When we moved to this house, then we met more and more people and they would invite us. But we’re not the type that we congregate only that they have to be Jewish. As I said, that thought, if anybody would be an anti-Semitic person, I would never want to have anything to do with them. But that’s not the kind of friends we ever would have. And after, you know, I got used to the idea and everybody knows we are Jewish, I mean it’s not a problem anymore. And our kids, too, they have mixture of non-Jewish friends and Jewish friends. Now, my son, Robert, in Nashville, he married a Catholic girl. Now, he is the least. He’s the one who came with me to Los Angeles. And he said that he learned more about Andy during that three hour memorial service than he ever knew, because he was just a little boy. And then he got away, Andy got away, you know, went to college and then he moved to Cal... so, I was very, very glad that he could come with me, that he wanted to come with me. And it made a very big impression on him. We got through music or through the universities or through work, that we made friends, you know, but it.... and some of them are Jewish, some of them are not Jewish. So it’s... we have some very, very good friends, who we still get together sometimes, have dinner out. He’s almost ninety years old. And on their second marriage and they’re Jewish. So, it’s not a matter that it has to be Jewish or not, but it has to be the same type of people.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	221	I’m going to say something about... I have a question that I have to explain a little bit first. I think and my assumption would be that most people living in Kentucky don’t really realize that there’s a group of Holocaust survivors who live in this state. And most of the Holocaust survivors who live in the state, live in Louisville. And I’m wondering if you’ve had a chance or an opportunity to travel outside of Louisville or to talk to people who have been kind of surprised, who know that you’re a survivor... like for example, if you speak to school groups, have you had experiences where you’ve found people, where you’ve spoken to people outside of 40 the Louisville area, who maybe wouldn’t have expected that even a Holocaust survivor lives in the state?	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	222	Well, there’s some schools that I’ve been speaking to, the teachers have been very, they’re mostly non-Jewish people. A lot of them maybe half black, you know. And they prepare the kids, most of them. They had Holocaust pictures on the wall. They were studying it before they asked me. So they were somewhat, and then they would ask a lot of questions. And I did it once at Highland Junior High School. There were 150 kids in the group and all 150 wrote me a thank you note about it. And I have all that. I have a box this full of all that kind of thing. They, one black kid, for example, said, “Can I touch you?” I said, “Yes you can.” And he said, “At least if somebody would say sometimes that the Holocaust did not exist, because we talked about that, at least I can say yes it did. Because I touched somebody who was part of it.” So, it made me feel good that they were thinking about that. And they hear once in a while stories where people don’t want to believe. And that’s the only reason I’m doing it, because it would very much bother me. And then, you know, I was very affected by this Yugoslavia problems, too, with this Kosovo deal. Because it was so similar to what we have gone through. And there were... there again, and I don’t know how you feel about it, some people who hate our president and hate the Democrats, would be very much against that he started this bombing and he started invading and going in. I had very mixed feelings toward the end, when the bombs kept on falling and maybe innocent people were killed. That bothered me, but at the same time, I thought to myself, if anybody would have tried to do and stopped at least part of it. They would have bombed, let’s see, the railroad tracks, when the train was going to Auschwitz. Not necessarily mine, but hundreds and hundreds of them. It could have maybe stopped something. And nobody did anything. And therefore, because I feel that way so strongly, I was saying that they did the right thing. Although it’s a very complicated situation and it’s never going to be peace in that part of the world. And even my friend, Ilus, we talked on the phone once and she was upset—now that surprised me—over the bombing. And she was not, she didn’t feel like I do.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	223	The bombing of Kosovo?	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	224	Kosovo. And she said, because she was from that part of the country, and she said something that, those problems go back to eighteen whatever and there will be never peace. And Albanians and so on and so forth... that this is not going to help and the bombing just causes more, you know, destruction and so on and so forth. And I was surprised by her saying that, because maybe there will be never peace, but at least it showed something to the world. That’s the way I feel. That something like that has to be stopped. Whether they completely can stop it, you know, one doesn’t know. But I... it bothered me, the bombing. It bothered me, but then every time I watched the news where people were happy that they were being helped, it made me feel good. Because just some food given to them or the shelter or the whatever, what would we have given if somebody would have rescued us during the year. And what would those other people have done, who were there for three years, if that could have been stopped? That’s the way I feel, whether that satisfies you or not.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	225	Yeah.	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	226	Yeah? 4]	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	227	I also wanted to ask you, after you arrived here in the United States, did you want to have children? Was that a goal of yours? Or did you have any other goals?	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	228	My husband (laughing) wrote me the long letter, when he invited me to come. And since he loves music so much, he even said that he would like to have six children. Like he wanted like a quintet or whatever. And after four, I think, we decided that’s plenty. But yes, I was, you know, kind of, not in a depressed mood, that I went always, you know I had certain kind of a fate, will be the way it is. Like I believe more in fate. Like in Auschwitz, I never tried to, this would better or that would be better. Whatever has to happen, would happen to me. Yes, children we wanted to, but I’m not going to tell you that we exactly had it when we planned it. Because then it would have taken a long time for us. Because he didn’t have much money. I didn’t. When do you feel now you are ready to have children? That you really can afford it? So, I’m glad just exactly the way it happened.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	229	It seems to me that you’ve been overall just very accepting in your life of the circumstances...	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	230	Yeah, yeah, yeah.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	231	...and not had a tendency to try to make something...	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	232	No, no, no, no. I really am and I think that’s what helped me through, if that’s a possibility, plus luck. I mean you can feel this way and get sick or they can shoot you and then you can have a hard attitude, but if that didn’t happen to you, then maybe that’s the reason. And why I was like that, I don’t know. But from whatever I told you, maybe that’s the conclusion you come to.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	233	Do you have anything else that you would like to say?	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	234	No, except you poor soul, you’re probably starving.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	235	I’m okay, I had breakfast. (Laughter.)	question
RG-50.549.05.0005	236	But that’s just what happened. I can give you some cheese. I can give you a sandwich before you leave. And I'll be happy to.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0005	237	Thank you. Thank you and this concludes our interview with Ann Klein. Conclusion of Interview 42	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	0	... Just test your voice too, so we can get the levels right. So, are you planning on watching the game on Saturday, the World Cup game?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	1	Yes, I think I’m going to take a look, because I want to know how they do compared to the other people.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	2	Are you rooting for the U.S., or China?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	3	Well, I think I would like to see China win. I like the acupuncture idea.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	4	Ah, yes, yes. Okay, this is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Dr. Paul Pressman. It’s July the eighth, 1999 and we are sitting in Dr. Pressman’s home and office in Lexington, Kentucky, and this is Arwen Donahue conducting the interview. This is tape number one, side A. Let’s begin then with, would you tell me something about your, well first of all, let’s begin with where you were born and your date of birth.	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	5	I was born in Paris, France, May 29, 1932. I did my school in France, my medical school, also. And I stay until the first World War and when the German came. And by the time probably I was around nine years old, and the Germans start to come in the school, but first it was the French police who came, just asking every teacher, “Do you have any Jewish boy in the school?” And she said or he said, “I don’t know.” So they ask, “Who is Jewish, raise your hand.” And I didn’t raise my hand and when I did go back home, I said to my mother and father, well, this is what happened. And they sent me in a safe place in South of France.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	6	How did you know not to raise your hand? What made you not do that?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	7	I think it was personal instinct. I thought, you know, you can ask, “Are you French? Would you like to stay and live in France?” But the question “Are you Jewish?” was a little bit surprising for me. Why should people ask what kind of religion, mostly we knew it was the police. So, I didn’t feel comfortable, so I said, I’m going to wait a little bit and speak to my parent and ask them what they think.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	8	Had you been aware at all at that time, that there was any danger to Jews posed by the Germans?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	9	Oh yes, I, in Paris, they start to prepare a big place, to put a lot of people, belonging to a certain religion, so I knew something was going on, but , you know, at my age, when I was nine or ten years old, it is not, it’s not like a game, but it’s not very serious. But I knew they’d been taking Jew in other country. 1	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	10	What was your name at birth?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	11	The same name I got now, Paul Pressman, PRESSMAN.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	12	Do you know anything about the name Pressman? Is that where your family came from?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	13	Mine parent are both born in, at the time 1t was Romania. It was Romania, became Russian, then became Romania. And all of my family, I don’t know any of them, but come from Romania. The name of the town is Kishinev, Bessarabia.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	14	When did they come to France, to Paris?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	15	They got married in Romania and they came, I remember my father saying, at the time they arrive in France, my mother was sixteen or seventeen. And they try first to come in United State, but they didn’t let them in United State, because my mother did have glaucoma. And they didn’t know what was glaucoma at the time. They thought it was a very dangerous sickness, so she did go back to England, stay in England a little while and establish in Paris, France. And this is where I was born.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	16	What was your, what were your parents’ names?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	17	My mother is Pauline Kogan, K O J AN! and my father was Joseph Pressman.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	18	And did you have brothers or sisters?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	19	I did have three brother. I’m the youngest one. The other brother, both of them did work with my father in a drapery factory he did open. The other one, at the time didn’t work, he was young. And I was the smallest, the little one.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	20	What were your, what was your oldest brother and your middle brother’s names?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	21	The oldest brother, who survived the Holocaust, name is Bernard and the other one, who died in Auschwitz was Maurice. The other one, the third one is Gaston, and I am Paul.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	22	And Gaston survived as well?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	23	Yes, because he was sent with me in a safe town, south of France, because at the time France was cut in two parts, north and south. And the south was with the Italian and it was much easier there. It didn’t stay long, but by the time the Italian were there, it was much easier than in north, where the Germans were much more rough with us.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	24	Did your mother work? ' The “J” is probably a misstated “G”. 2	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	25	Before the war, yes, she was working with my father. She was working a sewing machine in Havre (ph), in the business of my father. And until the end, she was working with him.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	26	And she stopped when the war began?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	27	Well, she stopped when the French police, under the order of the German came to pick up my two brother. And my two brother did follow the police with no resistance, because they, you know, the police said it is just to make a verification of your paper. And they didn’t ask anything about my father, but he right away closed the whole thing. And we had been waiting about the answer, but my two brother never came back.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	28	Can you just tell me something about your childhood, your home? What stands out in your memory from that time?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	29	Well, we used to have a nice apartment in Paris, close to the business of my father. And also about fifteen miles from Paris, we did have a little villa, where we used to go on Saturday and Sunday and stay there. Life was very simple, happy, didn’t have any major problem. They used to work during the week. I used to go to school. Saturday... Friday night, we load the car, we did go and stay outside of Paris. And everything was fine and dandy. So, life was normal, until the whole German story start and then everything change overnight.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	30	Were your parents religious at all? Your family?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	31	My mother was very religious, but my father was not religious at all. So, he ask me one day, I remember, he said, “Do you want to do your Bar Mitzvah?” And I said, “No, I don’t want to.” Okay, no Bar Mitzvah. And it was the end of the story. My brothers never did a Bar Mitzvah. He was really not very interested in, not only in the Jewish religion, but on any religion. This 1s, I think, the way Iam now. [Laughing]	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	32	Was it hard for your mother that you, that you and your brothers weren’t being raised more religious?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	33	I think so. I think it was hard for her and this is why she asked us, the day she’s going to die, she wants to be buried with the Jewish religion, which we did. At the time, I did have an office in south of France, close to Nice. And when she died, we made... the rabbi did the whole thing. We didn’t understand anything about it, because it was the first Jewish funeral we did. But here she is in south of France, in a Jewish place, where she was buried like the Jewish religion.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	34	Do you remember... I assume you, were you going to a public school?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	35	Yes.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	36	Do you remember when the Germans occupied France? Do you remember them coming in?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	37	In France? They came very, not in force. They came very, very slowly. The reason, I think, they got the whole thing so easy is because the French people are very anti-Semitic. So, for them 3 to give the address or to reveal where the Jew were living, it was not a problem. And I don’t mean to say all of them, because a lot of police... we did have a neighbor, across from our apartment, who was from the police. And I even remember his name. His name was Mr. Reddler (ph). And every time something did happen, he came in our door, knock on the door and said, “Be careful. They’re going to do this, they’re going to do this.” So, I don’t mean to say all the Frenchmen, but I said at least the majority of the French people were anti-Semitic.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	38	Did you have any sense, up to that point, of being a Jew? Had you personally experienced any anti-Semitism?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	39	All the time, even when I was a little boy I took the subway in Paris and you can see on the wall, Jew equal concentration camp, Jew go home, things like this. Yes, you couldn’t do otherwise than to realize, okay, we are not welcome in our own country. When I say our own country, I’m born in France, so I thought I was a Frenchman, which was a big mistake, because no. I was a Jew. It’s a little bit the same problem and I don’t want to start any...	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	40	It’s okay.	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	41	It’s the, my feeling... I speak with a lot of black people here and I ask them why do you call yourself, African-American? I don’t say to people, I am a French-American. I’m an American, because I asked to become an American. If I would call myself French-American, it would mean to say, I’m very happy to be French and I’m also happy to be an American. And I think in life, you have to make a choice, either you are an American or you’re French. And if it wouldn’t be... I say this the other day to a black guy. He was very surprised. And coming from me, I think it was not a big problem. But I said, “I think you’re very lucky, your grand-grandparent was brought in United State. At least now you can drive a car. You can have a nice home, instead of being in Africa where you’d be starving. You wouldn’t have any clothes to put on your back and anybody can kill you. And this for me is racism. Here racism 1s not this. They are not racist, so I don’t understand why you call yourself African-American. You are American from two, three or four generations. And it’s not because your parents were slave.” And when you know the story about the slave, it’s not the American who took the black people. It’s the chief of the village, who give black people to the American. So...	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	42	What kind of response did you get?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	43	Most of the time they said, “Well it’s a way of things. You have a different way of speaking.” And I said, “You know, I, as a Jewish person cannot be a racist. So, if I tell you this, it’s because coming from another country, I’m surprised the way you deal with your slave story. You feel sorry for yourself, but you’re so lucky to be in a country where you have freedom and you can live like any other person. You’re Black? Sure it’s, you can see a black man, but sometimes you can recognize a Jewish boy and so it’s nothing worse to be Black or to be Jew, but I don’t want to fight the country for this.”	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	44	You don’t think that Jews can be racist, too? 4	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	45	Oh, yes. Oh yeah, oh yeah, Jewish people can be very, very racist. And I saw this on many different occasion. But it’s not the same kind of racism they have. It’s a... I don’t know any Jew belonging to the KKK.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	46	They wouldn’t probably accept them. [Laughing]	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	47	Absolutely, so I don’t think... but it’s, it make a... Man is man, woman 1s woman, people are people. And you can find people, different idea of people, different approach of life and so I think, yes, it can be a lot of, some Jewish people can be racist. It doesn’t make a... but before we have to define: what do they mean by being racist?	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	48	What do you think that means?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	49	Well, racism is something, it’s hate with no reason. You like some people, you like some people living in this country. You like some people living in another country. You don’t like people the way they live, this can be racism. But basically, it’s not racism, it’s something, because you don’t like their way of laughing. Black people are very exuberant and maybe some American don’t like this and this can be a form of racism. And like I said before, Jewish people living in America are much more American than they are Jewish. And because of this, they can be racist.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	50	I don’t understand that last. Because they’re Jewish people living in America, they can be racist.	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	51	Because they feel very safe in this country. And like I told you before, Jewish people are Jewish by tradition, but they belong to a minority. And if you are in France or in United State or any country in the world, you still are minority. But it is so comfortable in United State, then Jewish people forget the background and say, “But I’m an American.” And I say, “No, first you are Jew, and if anybody is going to kill you, they’re going to kill you, just because you are Jew, not because you’re an American.” And this is the big problem and they lose the identity of being Jewish, just because they feel so comfortable. They feel, /t’s my country. Yes it is, in one way. But until, and you can see this on TV, this young man, who been speaking about racism against black, Jew, all the Jew have the power in the bank. It’s not true, but in his mind it is. And he killed people and he killed himself. You saw this on TV two or three days ago. This is the big problem.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	52	Let’s go back a little bit to, you were just telling me before about your experience as a child in Paris and the anti-Semitism that you experienced. Did you have, were all of your friends Jewish at the time?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	53	At the time I didn’t have a lot of friends, because I was, I did a big selection. I’m not the kind of man who have a lot of friends. And yes, at the time all my friends, at the time were Jewish. The reason 1s, I feel more comfortable with Jewish people than with non-Jewish people. And again, I don’t speak about religion. I speak about tradition. Going to a Jewish restaurant once in a while, it’s fun and it remind me memory. Watching a movie with Jewish song, it’s fun. I’ve been married twice with non-Jewish woman and I was missing this exchange of jokes, Jewish jokes or word. Even in New York, when I go to New York, people speak a lot of Jewish word and it’s always funny. And I always say, “Are you Jewish?” “No, but we use a lot of Jewish word here 5 in New York,” but they are not Jewish. But it’s funny, I like it, because it’s something... So when I was in France, I didn’t want to have non-Jewish friend because I would never know if the same guy 1s not going to give me a knife when the time comes.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	54	You really felt that at a very early age?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	55	Oh yes, oh yes.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	56	Did you...	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	57	Well, my brother came back from the concentration camp. The only reason I left France to come in the United State, I decided to come here in 1983, is because I didn’t feel comfortable in France. Because up to this date, you have this anti-Semitism in France. My brother, who is seventy-six or seventy-eight, doesn’t feel it. He said, “No, this is in your mind.” And he is married with a non-Jew woman. She 1s wonderful woman, but I don’t feel comfortable. I... France is a beautiful country. I like to go on vacation, but I couldn’t live there anymore, because of all this background. I’ve never been comfortable in France.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	58	Did your family speak Yiddish at home?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	59	Yes, all the time.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	60	Do you still speak Yiddish?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	61	Yes, uh huh. I don’t find a lot of people I can speak Yiddish with, because most of the Jewish people here, don’t speak Yiddish. But my grandson, which is the son of my daughter, and my daughter doesn’t follow the religion. But my grandson studied the Jewish story, I mean the difference between Sepharad and Ashkenazi and he said, “But sometime they are racist between...” And I said, “Yes, I know.” I think if you put two men with no religion on an island, there’s going to be racism, because man is stupid. They want to fight. They want to fight for a reason. The reason is religion. And they are going to fight about God, it’s my God, it’s not your God. God is God. Your God is my God. There is only one God. But we don’t want this, this way.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	62	Going back to Paris, you were talking a little bit earlier about the time when your two brothers were called in and they were deported. Do you remember around when that was?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	63	It was March in 1942, when they did go to Auschwitz. Before it was a camp a little bit outside of Paris called Drancy, where all the Jewish people been put together for a length of time, I think it was between eight and ten month. Where they start to shape the whole thing: “Are we going to send them? What kind of train are we going to use?” It was another camp not far from there, called Compiegne, which was also the same kind. So... there is a man, who came here in Lexington, a Jewish man, who gave something... I’ve got something, I will remember his name. And he explained what the German did have in mind. And it’s amazing the way they did organize the whole thing. Even it was a lot of Jewish people, put together in a train, they didn’t know nothing, from where they come, what they going to do, where they going to go. 6 Everything was real on paper. The train company didn’t know what they were going to transport, because it was special train for animals. So, it was so well organized, and they prepared all this and from each country it was the same thing. From Poland it was another way. From Yugoslavia it was another way. From Austria it was another way. It was really a technique they did have. And the top of those guys, I’m afraid to say he was a brain, because he was crazy. But his name was Himmler, and he organized the whole thing. And he organized this very well. And you know, the Jewish people who’ve been in camp, most of them were, what we call here blue-collar, simple people. They didn’t think we’re going to kill them. Even until they arrive in the camp, when they say, the SS was on, say, one side, “You go this way, you go this way.” No, it was nothing. The only time my brother realized he was in a bad direction 1s when one time, coming down from the train, he didn’t go fast enough. The SS slapped his face. And he was nineteen years old. Then he realized something is going to happen, now it’s another world. But until then, well 1t was hard, they didn’t have anything to eat in the train. They didn’t have any water. They didn’t have any... but it’s going to clear up, no problem. They didn’t realize they go to the butcher. They go to die, by thousands. And this was the life. They did go, because the only one who realize what’s going on were the educated people, the attorney, the doctor, the people who did study. But they were not many people. When my brother was deported in Auschwitz, it was a guy with him, who was, I think he was a colonel in the French army. And he said, “They are going to do nothing to me. I’m a colonel from the French army.” He died like all the one, just because he was Jew. That’s all. They didn’t care he was a colonel. He did have a high education. Doesn’t make any difference. You are Jew, you must die. It’s amazing, eh? But...	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	64	Did you and your family have any contact with your brothers while they were in Drancy?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	65	Yes, we did have the possibility to go around the camp, Private Honor (ph) from Haus (ph) let us in and we could communicate by sign. So we can see they are alive, because in Drancy they didn’t kill anybody. They been starving. They even allowed to receive some package of food. But like I said, 1t was not a long time, but communicate mouth to mouth? No, it was impossible. No German in Drancy just the French military and the police. No SS, no German, the whole camp was under the surveillance of the French police.	answer
RG-50.549.05.0006	66	Were your parents surprised about that?	question
RG-50.549.05.0006	67	It’s very hard for me to remember. It’s very hard, because like I said, I was eight, nine year. No, I have a hard time to remember the reaction of my father, the reaction of my mother. No, I don’t have any recollection.	answer

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Did there come...

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Maybe that’s good, maybe it’s bad. I don’t know.

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Did there come a point when you felt that you had to talk about your experiences, your memories?

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Well it came after, many years later. The very first time, I think I talked about it, that we were going to Cincinnati, to an art gallery, and Mary K. was with me and another friend. It was a two hour ride and somehow it came up and then I told them. When I used to walk with neighbors and friends and they have known me forever. So, years and years ago, we would walk for maybe 45 minutes and one of my friends, not Jewish, asked me if I would talk about it. So, I said, “Pll be glad to,” and for many, many weeks that we would walk, we stopped at a certain point and then they wanted to know the rest of it. So, by now it doesn’t give me any problems to talk about it. When some of the schools ask me, I did. I couldn’t begin to tell you now how many times I did speak in schools. Once at the Catherine Spalding College, once at St. Andrews Church and mainly then on Jewish situations, of course. And they might have a Jewish student there or not. And now, I’m completely at ease with myself and I can talk about it. Once ina while I kind of get a lump in my throat, you know, but I can do it.

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Did you...

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And I’m glad that I can, because Sandy’s sister, the one who is coming from Argentina now, she completely held it back all the time. So much that if the subject comes up, she just completely bursts out crying. She couldn’t talk to her kids about it... they know... or to her grandchildren about it. And her granddaughter said, “Why don’t you make a tape of it,” because she was with me one year. Sylvia, she’s now about twenty some years old. She told her grandmother, “Why don’t you make a tape of it? Maybe it would be easier for you.” And everybody tells this to everybody, but it’s not easy to do. I would have never just done it, if Mary K. wouldn’t have insisted.

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Was it important to you, personally to do it?

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I, I, it’s nice. Like, for example, I have a neighbor two houses down, who is from Vienna and who left Vienna, they took all of her things away. And she ended up in Shanghai. I said, “Why don’t you tell your story?” She can not. And all alone, unless somebody asks you, it’s very hard to do that. But I’m glad. I am glad that I did it. And I’m glad that there is a record of it, maybe for the future generation. I mean, I don’t care whether I would have it or not, but... so, I think it’s... and that’s why they make such a big deal about that now. Of course, a lot of people go back with transports to Auschwitz, and so I don’t have any desire to do that.

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How do you, how do you feel about living in Louisville? 38

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I like Louisville. I do like it and I don’t. Wouldn’t like to live any other place. I’ve not been in too many places in the United States, but Louisville 1s a nice town. And we made a lot of friends. Now that we’re getting older we don’t see them as much anymore. And luckily one daughter lives here and the two grandchildren, you know. I have in fact, a little one will have a birthday tomorrow. He’ll be seven years old. And I’m invited to go to a cave for the birthday party. But I like it here. I mean I am satisfied and I wouldn’t want to live any other place anymore... End of Tape 3, Side A 39 Tape 3, Side B

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...Democrats, okay? Now if when we were younger and we would get together and like let’s see, during some of the presidential elections, we would all get together and everybody was for that same person. We used to think everybody, like long, long time ago, Stevenson was running and we all liked him. Then he didn’t make it and we were so surprised. So we don’t have any, non- liberal friends, but you run into a lot of people like that. And that doesn’t mean that we are not friendly with them. But as we get older we don’t really... I used to have parties and now when my kids come home, we get together. Pll be pretty busy, so I’m glad you came today. Cause from tomorrow on, I'll be kind of busy with my daughter and her 13-year-old is coming from Seattle. And they usually... my kids here come over. And I was just now in Nashville with Robert, so... excuse me, So...

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You keep pretty busy.

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Yeah, I keep busy, and I...

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When you first moved to Louisville, how did you integrate into the community here? How did you make friends? And was it with the Jewish community only?

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Well for a while, no, not really. We lived in the South end and we didn’t, some people through his work would come and look us up and so on. When we moved to this house, then we met more and more people and they would invite us. But we’re not the type that we congregate only that they have to be Jewish. As I said, that thought, if anybody would be an anti-Semitic person, I would never want to have anything to do with them. But that’s not the kind of friends we ever would have. And after, you know, I got used to the idea and everybody knows we are Jewish, I mean it’s not a problem anymore. And our kids, too, they have mixture of non-Jewish friends and Jewish friends. Now, my son, Robert, in Nashville, he married a Catholic girl. Now, he is the least. He’s the one who came with me to Los Angeles. And he said that he learned more about Andy during that three hour memorial service than he ever knew, because he was just a little boy. And then he got away, Andy got away, you know, went to college and then he moved to Cal... so, I was very, very glad that he could come with me, that he wanted to come with me. And it made a very big impression on him. We got through music or through the universities or through work, that we made friends, you know, but it.... and some of them are Jewish, some of them are not Jewish. So it’s... we have some very, very good friends, who we still get together sometimes, have dinner out. He’s almost ninety years old. And on their second marriage and they’re Jewish. So, it’s not a matter that it has to be Jewish or not, but it has to be the same type of people.

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I’m going to say something about... I have a question that I have to explain a little bit first. I think and my assumption would be that most people living in Kentucky don’t really realize that there’s a group of Holocaust survivors who live in this state. And most of the Holocaust survivors who live in the state, live in Louisville. And I’m wondering if you’ve had a chance or an opportunity to travel outside of Louisville or to talk to people who have been kind of surprised, who know that you’re a survivor... like for example, if you speak to school groups, have you had experiences where you’ve found people, where you’ve spoken to people outside of 40 the Louisville area, who maybe wouldn’t have expected that even a Holocaust survivor lives in the state?

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Well, there’s some schools that I’ve been speaking to, the teachers have been very, they’re mostly non-Jewish people. A lot of them maybe half black, you know. And they prepare the kids, most of them. They had Holocaust pictures on the wall. They were studying it before they asked me. So they were somewhat, and then they would ask a lot of questions. And I did it once at Highland Junior High School. There were 150 kids in the group and all 150 wrote me a thank you note about it. And I have all that. I have a box this full of all that kind of thing. They, one black kid, for example, said, “Can I touch you?” I said, “Yes you can.” And he said, “At least if somebody would say sometimes that the Holocaust did not exist, because we talked about that, at least I can say yes it did. Because I touched somebody who was part of it.” So, it made me feel good that they were thinking about that. And they hear once in a while stories where people don’t want to believe. And that’s the only reason I’m doing it, because it would very much bother me. And then, you know, I was very affected by this Yugoslavia problems, too, with this Kosovo deal. Because it was so similar to what we have gone through. And there were... there again, and I don’t know how you feel about it, some people who hate our president and hate the Democrats, would be very much against that he started this bombing and he started invading and going in. I had very mixed feelings toward the end, when the bombs kept on falling and maybe innocent people were killed. That bothered me, but at the same time, I thought to myself, if anybody would have tried to do and stopped at least part of it. They would have bombed, let’s see, the railroad tracks, when the train was going to Auschwitz. Not necessarily mine, but hundreds and hundreds of them. It could have maybe stopped something. And nobody did anything. And therefore, because I feel that way so strongly, I was saying that they did the right thing. Although it’s a very complicated situation and it’s never going to be peace in that part of the world. And even my friend, Ilus, we talked on the phone once and she was upset—now that surprised me—over the bombing. And she was not, she didn’t feel like I do.

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The bombing of Kosovo?

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Kosovo. And she said, because she was from that part of the country, and she said something that, those problems go back to eighteen whatever and there will be never peace. And Albanians and so on and so forth... that this is not going to help and the bombing just causes more, you know, destruction and so on and so forth. And I was surprised by her saying that, because maybe there will be never peace, but at least it showed something to the world. That’s the way I feel. That something like that has to be stopped. Whether they completely can stop it, you know, one doesn’t know. But I... it bothered me, the bombing. It bothered me, but then every time I watched the news where people were happy that they were being helped, it made me feel good. Because just some food given to them or the shelter or the whatever, what would we have given if somebody would have rescued us during the year. And what would those other people have done, who were there for three years, if that could have been stopped? That’s the way I feel, whether that satisfies you or not.

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Yeah.

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Yeah? 4]

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I also wanted to ask you, after you arrived here in the United States, did you want to have children? Was that a goal of yours? Or did you have any other goals?

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My husband (laughing) wrote me the long letter, when he invited me to come. And since he loves music so much, he even said that he would like to have six children. Like he wanted like a quintet or whatever. And after four, I think, we decided that’s plenty. But yes, I was, you know, kind of, not in a depressed mood, that I went always, you know I had certain kind of a fate, will be the way it is. Like I believe more in fate. Like in Auschwitz, I never tried to, this would better or that would be better. Whatever has to happen, would happen to me. Yes, children we wanted to, but I’m not going to tell you that we exactly had it when we planned it. Because then it would have taken a long time for us. Because he didn’t have much money. I didn’t. When do you feel now you are ready to have children? That you really can afford it? So, I’m glad just exactly the way it happened.

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It seems to me that you’ve been overall just very accepting in your life of the circumstances...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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...and not had a tendency to try to make something...

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No, no, no, no. I really am and I think that’s what helped me through, if that’s a possibility, plus luck. I mean you can feel this way and get sick or they can shoot you and then you can have a hard attitude, but if that didn’t happen to you, then maybe that’s the reason. And why I was like that, I don’t know. But from whatever I told you, maybe that’s the conclusion you come to.

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Do you have anything else that you would like to say?

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No, except you poor soul, you’re probably starving.

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I’m okay, I had breakfast. (Laughter.)

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But that’s just what happened. I can give you some cheese. I can give you a sandwich before you leave. And I'll be happy to.

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Thank you. Thank you and this concludes our interview with Ann Klein. Conclusion of Interview 42

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... Just test your voice too, so we can get the levels right. So, are you planning on watching the game on Saturday, the World Cup game?

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Yes, I think I’m going to take a look, because I want to know how they do compared to the other people.

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Are you rooting for the U.S., or China?

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Well, I think I would like to see China win. I like the acupuncture idea.

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Ah, yes, yes. Okay, this is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Dr. Paul Pressman. It’s July the eighth, 1999 and we are sitting in Dr. Pressman’s home and office in Lexington, Kentucky, and this is Arwen Donahue conducting the interview. This is tape number one, side A. Let’s begin then with, would you tell me something about your, well first of all, let’s begin with where you were born and your date of birth.

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I was born in Paris, France, May 29, 1932. I did my school in France, my medical school, also. And I stay until the first World War and when the German came. And by the time probably I was around nine years old, and the Germans start to come in the school, but first it was the French police who came, just asking every teacher, “Do you have any Jewish boy in the school?” And she said or he said, “I don’t know.” So they ask, “Who is Jewish, raise your hand.” And I didn’t raise my hand and when I did go back home, I said to my mother and father, well, this is what happened. And they sent me in a safe place in South of France.

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How did you know not to raise your hand? What made you not do that?

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I think it was personal instinct. I thought, you know, you can ask, “Are you French? Would you like to stay and live in France?” But the question “Are you Jewish?” was a little bit surprising for me. Why should people ask what kind of religion, mostly we knew it was the police. So, I didn’t feel comfortable, so I said, I’m going to wait a little bit and speak to my parent and ask them what they think.

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Had you been aware at all at that time, that there was any danger to Jews posed by the Germans?

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Oh yes, I, in Paris, they start to prepare a big place, to put a lot of people, belonging to a certain religion, so I knew something was going on, but , you know, at my age, when I was nine or ten years old, it is not, it’s not like a game, but it’s not very serious. But I knew they’d been taking Jew in other country. 1

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What was your name at birth?

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The same name I got now, Paul Pressman, PRESSMAN.

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Do you know anything about the name Pressman? Is that where your family came from?

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Mine parent are both born in, at the time 1t was Romania. It was Romania, became Russian, then became Romania. And all of my family, I don’t know any of them, but come from Romania. The name of the town is Kishinev, Bessarabia.

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When did they come to France, to Paris?

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They got married in Romania and they came, I remember my father saying, at the time they arrive in France, my mother was sixteen or seventeen. And they try first to come in United State, but they didn’t let them in United State, because my mother did have glaucoma. And they didn’t know what was glaucoma at the time. They thought it was a very dangerous sickness, so she did go back to England, stay in England a little while and establish in Paris, France. And this is where I was born.

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What was your, what were your parents’ names?

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My mother is Pauline Kogan, K O J AN! and my father was Joseph Pressman.

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And did you have brothers or sisters?

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I did have three brother. I’m the youngest one. The other brother, both of them did work with my father in a drapery factory he did open. The other one, at the time didn’t work, he was young. And I was the smallest, the little one.

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What were your, what was your oldest brother and your middle brother’s names?

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The oldest brother, who survived the Holocaust, name is Bernard and the other one, who died in Auschwitz was Maurice. The other one, the third one is Gaston, and I am Paul.

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And Gaston survived as well?

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Yes, because he was sent with me in a safe town, south of France, because at the time France was cut in two parts, north and south. And the south was with the Italian and it was much easier there. It didn’t stay long, but by the time the Italian were there, it was much easier than in north, where the Germans were much more rough with us.

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Did your mother work? ' The “J” is probably a misstated “G”. 2

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Before the war, yes, she was working with my father. She was working a sewing machine in Havre (ph), in the business of my father. And until the end, she was working with him.

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And she stopped when the war began?

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Well, she stopped when the French police, under the order of the German came to pick up my two brother. And my two brother did follow the police with no resistance, because they, you know, the police said it is just to make a verification of your paper. And they didn’t ask anything about my father, but he right away closed the whole thing. And we had been waiting about the answer, but my two brother never came back.

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Can you just tell me something about your childhood, your home? What stands out in your memory from that time?

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Well, we used to have a nice apartment in Paris, close to the business of my father. And also about fifteen miles from Paris, we did have a little villa, where we used to go on Saturday and Sunday and stay there. Life was very simple, happy, didn’t have any major problem. They used to work during the week. I used to go to school. Saturday... Friday night, we load the car, we did go and stay outside of Paris. And everything was fine and dandy. So, life was normal, until the whole German story start and then everything change overnight.

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Were your parents religious at all? Your family?

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My mother was very religious, but my father was not religious at all. So, he ask me one day, I remember, he said, “Do you want to do your Bar Mitzvah?” And I said, “No, I don’t want to.” Okay, no Bar Mitzvah. And it was the end of the story. My brothers never did a Bar Mitzvah. He was really not very interested in, not only in the Jewish religion, but on any religion. This 1s, I think, the way Iam now. [Laughing]

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Was it hard for your mother that you, that you and your brothers weren’t being raised more religious?

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I think so. I think it was hard for her and this is why she asked us, the day she’s going to die, she wants to be buried with the Jewish religion, which we did. At the time, I did have an office in south of France, close to Nice. And when she died, we made... the rabbi did the whole thing. We didn’t understand anything about it, because it was the first Jewish funeral we did. But here she is in south of France, in a Jewish place, where she was buried like the Jewish religion.

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Do you remember... I assume you, were you going to a public school?

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Yes.

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Do you remember when the Germans occupied France? Do you remember them coming in?

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In France? They came very, not in force. They came very, very slowly. The reason, I think, they got the whole thing so easy is because the French people are very anti-Semitic. So, for them 3 to give the address or to reveal where the Jew were living, it was not a problem. And I don’t mean to say all of them, because a lot of police... we did have a neighbor, across from our apartment, who was from the police. And I even remember his name. His name was Mr. Reddler (ph). And every time something did happen, he came in our door, knock on the door and said, “Be careful. They’re going to do this, they’re going to do this.” So, I don’t mean to say all the Frenchmen, but I said at least the majority of the French people were anti-Semitic.

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Did you have any sense, up to that point, of being a Jew? Had you personally experienced any anti-Semitism?

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All the time, even when I was a little boy I took the subway in Paris and you can see on the wall, Jew equal concentration camp, Jew go home, things like this. Yes, you couldn’t do otherwise than to realize, okay, we are not welcome in our own country. When I say our own country, I’m born in France, so I thought I was a Frenchman, which was a big mistake, because no. I was a Jew. It’s a little bit the same problem and I don’t want to start any...

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It’s okay.

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It’s the, my feeling... I speak with a lot of black people here and I ask them why do you call yourself, African-American? I don’t say to people, I am a French-American. I’m an American, because I asked to become an American. If I would call myself French-American, it would mean to say, I’m very happy to be French and I’m also happy to be an American. And I think in life, you have to make a choice, either you are an American or you’re French. And if it wouldn’t be... I say this the other day to a black guy. He was very surprised. And coming from me, I think it was not a big problem. But I said, “I think you’re very lucky, your grand-grandparent was brought in United State. At least now you can drive a car. You can have a nice home, instead of being in Africa where you’d be starving. You wouldn’t have any clothes to put on your back and anybody can kill you. And this for me is racism. Here racism 1s not this. They are not racist, so I don’t understand why you call yourself African-American. You are American from two, three or four generations. And it’s not because your parents were slave.” And when you know the story about the slave, it’s not the American who took the black people. It’s the chief of the village, who give black people to the American. So...

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What kind of response did you get?

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Most of the time they said, “Well it’s a way of things. You have a different way of speaking.” And I said, “You know, I, as a Jewish person cannot be a racist. So, if I tell you this, it’s because coming from another country, I’m surprised the way you deal with your slave story. You feel sorry for yourself, but you’re so lucky to be in a country where you have freedom and you can live like any other person. You’re Black? Sure it’s, you can see a black man, but sometimes you can recognize a Jewish boy and so it’s nothing worse to be Black or to be Jew, but I don’t want to fight the country for this.”

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You don’t think that Jews can be racist, too? 4

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Oh, yes. Oh yeah, oh yeah, Jewish people can be very, very racist. And I saw this on many different occasion. But it’s not the same kind of racism they have. It’s a... I don’t know any Jew belonging to the KKK.

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They wouldn’t probably accept them. [Laughing]

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Absolutely, so I don’t think... but it’s, it make a... Man is man, woman 1s woman, people are people. And you can find people, different idea of people, different approach of life and so I think, yes, it can be a lot of, some Jewish people can be racist. It doesn’t make a... but before we have to define: what do they mean by being racist?

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What do you think that means?

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Well, racism is something, it’s hate with no reason. You like some people, you like some people living in this country. You like some people living in another country. You don’t like people the way they live, this can be racism. But basically, it’s not racism, it’s something, because you don’t like their way of laughing. Black people are very exuberant and maybe some American don’t like this and this can be a form of racism. And like I said before, Jewish people living in America are much more American than they are Jewish. And because of this, they can be racist.

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I don’t understand that last. Because they’re Jewish people living in America, they can be racist.

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Because they feel very safe in this country. And like I told you before, Jewish people are Jewish by tradition, but they belong to a minority. And if you are in France or in United State or any country in the world, you still are minority. But it is so comfortable in United State, then Jewish people forget the background and say, “But I’m an American.” And I say, “No, first you are Jew, and if anybody is going to kill you, they’re going to kill you, just because you are Jew, not because you’re an American.” And this is the big problem and they lose the identity of being Jewish, just because they feel so comfortable. They feel, /t’s my country. Yes it is, in one way. But until, and you can see this on TV, this young man, who been speaking about racism against black, Jew, all the Jew have the power in the bank. It’s not true, but in his mind it is. And he killed people and he killed himself. You saw this on TV two or three days ago. This is the big problem.

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Let’s go back a little bit to, you were just telling me before about your experience as a child in Paris and the anti-Semitism that you experienced. Did you have, were all of your friends Jewish at the time?

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At the time I didn’t have a lot of friends, because I was, I did a big selection. I’m not the kind of man who have a lot of friends. And yes, at the time all my friends, at the time were Jewish. The reason 1s, I feel more comfortable with Jewish people than with non-Jewish people. And again, I don’t speak about religion. I speak about tradition. Going to a Jewish restaurant once in a while, it’s fun and it remind me memory. Watching a movie with Jewish song, it’s fun. I’ve been married twice with non-Jewish woman and I was missing this exchange of jokes, Jewish jokes or word. Even in New York, when I go to New York, people speak a lot of Jewish word and it’s always funny. And I always say, “Are you Jewish?” “No, but we use a lot of Jewish word here 5 in New York,” but they are not Jewish. But it’s funny, I like it, because it’s something... So when I was in France, I didn’t want to have non-Jewish friend because I would never know if the same guy 1s not going to give me a knife when the time comes.

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You really felt that at a very early age?

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Oh yes, oh yes.

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Did you...

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Well, my brother came back from the concentration camp. The only reason I left France to come in the United State, I decided to come here in 1983, is because I didn’t feel comfortable in France. Because up to this date, you have this anti-Semitism in France. My brother, who is seventy-six or seventy-eight, doesn’t feel it. He said, “No, this is in your mind.” And he is married with a non-Jew woman. She 1s wonderful woman, but I don’t feel comfortable. I... France is a beautiful country. I like to go on vacation, but I couldn’t live there anymore, because of all this background. I’ve never been comfortable in France.

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Did your family speak Yiddish at home?

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Yes, all the time.

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Do you still speak Yiddish?

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Yes, uh huh. I don’t find a lot of people I can speak Yiddish with, because most of the Jewish people here, don’t speak Yiddish. But my grandson, which is the son of my daughter, and my daughter doesn’t follow the religion. But my grandson studied the Jewish story, I mean the difference between Sepharad and Ashkenazi and he said, “But sometime they are racist between...” And I said, “Yes, I know.” I think if you put two men with no religion on an island, there’s going to be racism, because man is stupid. They want to fight. They want to fight for a reason. The reason is religion. And they are going to fight about God, it’s my God, it’s not your God. God is God. Your God is my God. There is only one God. But we don’t want this, this way.

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Going back to Paris, you were talking a little bit earlier about the time when your two brothers were called in and they were deported. Do you remember around when that was?

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It was March in 1942, when they did go to Auschwitz. Before it was a camp a little bit outside of Paris called Drancy, where all the Jewish people been put together for a length of time, I think it was between eight and ten month. Where they start to shape the whole thing: “Are we going to send them? What kind of train are we going to use?” It was another camp not far from there, called Compiegne, which was also the same kind. So... there is a man, who came here in Lexington, a Jewish man, who gave something... I’ve got something, I will remember his name. And he explained what the German did have in mind. And it’s amazing the way they did organize the whole thing. Even it was a lot of Jewish people, put together in a train, they didn’t know nothing, from where they come, what they going to do, where they going to go. 6 Everything was real on paper. The train company didn’t know what they were going to transport, because it was special train for animals. So, it was so well organized, and they prepared all this and from each country it was the same thing. From Poland it was another way. From Yugoslavia it was another way. From Austria it was another way. It was really a technique they did have. And the top of those guys, I’m afraid to say he was a brain, because he was crazy. But his name was Himmler, and he organized the whole thing. And he organized this very well. And you know, the Jewish people who’ve been in camp, most of them were, what we call here blue-collar, simple people. They didn’t think we’re going to kill them. Even until they arrive in the camp, when they say, the SS was on, say, one side, “You go this way, you go this way.” No, it was nothing. The only time my brother realized he was in a bad direction 1s when one time, coming down from the train, he didn’t go fast enough. The SS slapped his face. And he was nineteen years old. Then he realized something is going to happen, now it’s another world. But until then, well 1t was hard, they didn’t have anything to eat in the train. They didn’t have any water. They didn’t have any... but it’s going to clear up, no problem. They didn’t realize they go to the butcher. They go to die, by thousands. And this was the life. They did go, because the only one who realize what’s going on were the educated people, the attorney, the doctor, the people who did study. But they were not many people. When my brother was deported in Auschwitz, it was a guy with him, who was, I think he was a colonel in the French army. And he said, “They are going to do nothing to me. I’m a colonel from the French army.” He died like all the one, just because he was Jew. That’s all. They didn’t care he was a colonel. He did have a high education. Doesn’t make any difference. You are Jew, you must die. It’s amazing, eh? But...

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Did you and your family have any contact with your brothers while they were in Drancy?

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Yes, we did have the possibility to go around the camp, Private Honor (ph) from Haus (ph) let us in and we could communicate by sign. So we can see they are alive, because in Drancy they didn’t kill anybody. They been starving. They even allowed to receive some package of food. But like I said, 1t was not a long time, but communicate mouth to mouth? No, it was impossible. No German in Drancy just the French military and the police. No SS, no German, the whole camp was under the surveillance of the French police.

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Were your parents surprised about that?

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It’s very hard for me to remember. It’s very hard, because like I said, I was eight, nine year. No, I have a hard time to remember the reaction of my father, the reaction of my mother. No, I don’t have any recollection.

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