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RG-50.549.05.0006

Do remember any talk about the political situation at home?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Well, you have to remember, my parent were not very high educated people. My mother did barely write. She spoke mostly the language, but she didn’t speak the... but 1t was, it was something. You have to remember my parent left Russia because of the Bolshevism. My parent were three hundred percent for the idea of communism. So, they were with one track mind. So politically, even if I could remember, I don’t think it would be accurate, because they were too much in one way. I couldn’t have any discussion. Even my brother, who is alive now, I can, 7 some conversation about politic I cannot have with him, because he is still in one track. Very hard to discuss about politic. And again, like I said before, France is his country. It’s the best place, why should I go in America? End of Tape 1, Side A 8 Tape 1, Side B

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RG-50.549.05.0006

This is tape number one, side B of an interview with Doctor Paul Pressman. Do you, how, did your parents tell you at all, when they were making plans to escape to the South of France? Was there any discussion with you about that or did it just happen?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

No, they, my parent, neither my mother, neither my father, didn’t discuss with the children. We’d been raised with a lot of authority from my folks. And they say, “This is an emergency; we have to go.” So my father is going to go there. We are going to go there. And we’ll see how it is going to be. And we’ll decide day by day, because it was no other way. We have to leave everything. Everything we got lost. We left with too little luggage and that’s it, because we knew we never going to see anything we left. Because it was the end. We try to save our life, that’s all. So another time for me and like my two other brother were in Drancy, so it was only another brother and me, so it was a little bit easier. So, my father left with my other brother, Gaston, and I stay with my mother. And at the time it was, Paris became very, very difficult. No place to hide, so my mother send me through the Zone. It was a line between the North and South and you have to pass the Zone. And some French people for money, they direct you between the army. And I did go in South in Grenoble. And when I arrive in Grenoble, a friend of my mother took me and three days later she came down. And we stay... and I don’t remember how long, maybe couple months, three months. And it became very dangerous to stay there. So, she send me to my father. And where my father was, was more dangerous than there, so they decide... I came back to see my mother and my mother, remember I was nine years old. So, they decide to send me to Switzerland with a group of Jewish people, boys. And I think I was the oldest one from all the boys. We were about fourteen, fifteen. So, we did go in one little town, just to the frontier, slept there until midnight, one o’clock in the morning. Then two men took us, make us walk and we arrive on the border. The Swiss took us and put us in a refugee camp.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Did you leave to go to the South of France immediately, was that before your brothers had been deported for Auschwitz from Drancy?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

No after, right after, because it was very, they realized now that’s it. If we don’t do something, they are going to take us and we’re going to go to Auschwitz. So, probably my parents said, let’s save there two boys and we’ll see.

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Did you know anything about Auschwitz at the time?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

No. No. No, we didn’t know. No, I don’t think I knew something. We knew about Drancy because I did go to Drancy with my mother just to see from far away my brother. But we didn’t know anything about the camp where they burn cadaver, where they put them in a chamber and put gas. We didn’t know all this. No.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Do you remember from that time any restrictions starting to be imposed on you as a Jew?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Oh, the first restriction was to carry the yellow badge. We did have a yellow star, the Jewish star, with inside “Jew” and you have to carry this in anything you wear. So, you did have two way, either you don’t carry this thing and if they catch you, they kill you right there, or if you 9 have one, everybody can see you. And this was only in the north of France, in Paris. So this is why my mother decided to let us go down in south, because it was, I remember when they start to give us this yellow badge to carry. In the street I used to live, it was a man, who was very old, maybe eighty-five, ninety and he was blind, Jewish. And he carried this yellow thing and I thought to myself, this is terrible, because if you can treat a human being, because of religion, it’s really the end. And this 1s, I think where my mother decided to send me, because, you know, it’s so easy. It’s very hard to explain how does it look. How do you realize a park, like here, Rupp Arena, downtown, with all the door closed, only one open and you push all the Jew inside. And it was, I don’t know, maybe five hundred thousand, six hundred thousand. I don’t know... all there. And from there, they start to spread group. And this was the beginning of the end. So, it was time to do something, leave, hide and this is where I think they organized this, my mother and my father.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Did they have any connections with any resistance organizations at that time?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

I found out my mother was a captain from the French army. Since when, I don’t know. When I was in Grenoble, this is where I realized what she was doing, because I never saw my mother with a gun. And one day, she did have a big book, she always carry with her. And I said, why do you carry this book? And she said, well, I will show you, but you forget about what you are going to see. She opened the book and it was cut and it was a gun inside. Because she used to bring food to Resistance who had been caught and put into the hospital. And she survived the whole thing, because she die after the war, with... So, yes she belonged to a group, but...

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Was it, when you say French army, what exactly do you mean?

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The French regular army.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

But the French army...

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Was illegal, because the real army were at the service of the Germans. All the, I don’t know how I’m going to tell you...

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RG-50.549.05.0006

It was under de Gaulle?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Yes. Force Francaise de |’Interieur (ph). So, it was civilian. They didn’t have any uniform, but they been working to liberate France under the order of Charles de Gaulle, who was in England. So, they been listening to the radio at night for special message. But all this for me was, I didn’t understand.

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When did you find out that she was a captain with the army?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

I think I was, just before I left for Switzerland, which was about... when I left for Switzerland, I think it was in ‘44, around 1944, what month, I don’t remember. But it was in 1944. This is where she went... and I, we were a little bit surprised, because when we... when they took us to the frontier at Switzerland, two military from Swiss did have the gun and say, “Approach the door.” And I don’t know if you know it, but the Swiss soldier are dressed exactly like the 10 German soldier. Green with the same helmet. And I thought to myself, “That’s it, they got us.” The only difference, they got button who say Switzerland. And with the light, I saw the button and I said, “Uh huh, maybe we got a chance,” but otherwise they look exactly like the German. And they put us in the camp. A lot of people... they did have to put us ina camp. For one reason is because, a lot of people left France to go to Switzerland, but the Swiss didn’t know who they was. So, before, they did the same thing, they put them in a camp and ask questions. Interrogate them. And from there, they put me in another camp of children. And from there, you did have a lot of family from Switzerland who said, “I can take one or two boy in my home. I have the room.” And this is how I did go to this priest, who was, not Catholic, he was...

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Protestant.

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Protestant. And I stay with him until the end of the war.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Before we go to that, tell me how you got from Paris to Grenoble.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

By myself. My mother put me on the train and she told me a lot of thing. “Don’t say this, don’t say this, don’t speak to nobody. Don’t do this.” She give me a couple sandwich. It took about maybe five, six hour.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Do you remember specifically what she told you to do and do not do?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Yes. “If anybody ask you if you Jewish, you say no. Where do you go? You go to see your uncle, to stay with him. What his name? You don’t know. Somebody is going to be at the station to pick you up. If any German soldier come close to you in the train and you see he start to ask paper, stay close to somebody, don’t be by yourself.” Just basic common things, which I did. And when I arrive at Grenoble, she also give me a pass name. And she said, “Don’t go with anybody unless they tell you this.” And I don’t remember what it was. A word like summertime or something like this. And this lady came to me and said “Summertime,” and I said okay. And I did go with her. I didn’t have any luggage. I did have a little package, but...

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Were you afraid?

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I don’t think so. Ifmy memory is correct, I was not afraid. I don’t think so.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Was it kind of an adventure?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

No. The funny part is all my life, like I said, I’m not religious, but all my life, I believe since I was a little boy... and I used to speak about this with my mother. I believe we don’t die. The body die, but the spirit stay alive. So, I said, the worst can happen to me, they going to get my body, but my spirit is going to be reborn 1n another corp. This helped me a lot by making me feel more secure. And dying, I never been afraid of dying. It’s not a problem for me. I felt what should happen, will happen. But no, I don’t think I was afraid. No.

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Did you have any problems on the train at all? 11

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No. One time it was, I remember because I was standing. I didn’t have any seat. I saw the German beginning the train and going room to room to ask paper. And I thought to myself, now is the time to find myself a tutor. So, it was a couple in the train. And nicely I ask them if... I always been a good diplomat. I asked if I can sit close to them. And they felt something, probably. The German come in, they say, “Who is this boy?” “He’s with us.” And it was finished. And they left. I remember the whole thing from Paris to Grenoble like it was yesterday. I could recognize the face of the German soldier. But it was, no it was not a game. I realized it was very serious, but when everybody dance, you have to dance. And I thought if I don’t survive, no problem.

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Who was there to greet you when you got off the train?

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A lady, and I don’t remember this lady, because I didn’t see her long enough. She took me to a group of people. I stay with this group ina room. I stay about a day or two. We didn’t go out. And then my mother picked me up and I stay with her one day, and she put me on another train. To save me, she try something... 1t was funny, but 1t was not funny in real. In Grenoble, she found a way, I don’t know how she did, she found a way to put me in a... Catholic people who are...

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Monks?

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Monk.

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Monastery?

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Yes. And I stay there for three days and I couldn’t stand it. And I couldn’t stand it. I left, I mean it was very hard to go out from the monastery. So, I put myself when... and I saw when they took the garbage can. And I found an empty one and I did go inside. And they put me ona truck. And I left the monastery and I did go see my mother. When I arrive, and she said, “How did you get out? Why? What happened? You’ve been safe!” And I said, “I can’t stay there, it’s impossible. And one day or another, they going to come.” So finally she decided to send me to Switzerland.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

But how long were you in Grenoble before you went to Pau to join your father?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Very short time, very short time. We speak about maybe a week, not long. Every time it was a few days there, a few days there, back and forth, you know.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

And when you were in Grenoble was that during the time that the Italians were occupying that area?

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Yes.

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Do you remember, did you have any interaction with Italian forces? 12

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No, Italian are very funny people. They are very, how can I say, I won’t say romantic, but they are very nice. Even now, I don’t know why, when I go to Europe, a lot of people, when I go to Europe I go with friends, “Let’s go to Italy.” I don’t want to go to Italy. It’s not I don’t like Italian, but they always romance, they are very crying, very... I don’t like Italian. [Laughing]

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Do you think that goes back to that time that you were there in Grenoble?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

I don’t know. I don’t know. I have a hard time to analyze why I don’t like Italian, but I don’t know. Spanish are completely different. They are more rough. Italian, when you go in Italy, men walk in the street, holding hand by hand. They are very different. And I don’t know why. I mean I wouldn’t do any harm to Italian, but going to Italy. The décor is always the same. You been to Italy? Did you go to the Piazza San Marco? And you see the police man with the, they look like... I don’t like this. [Laughing] So, I avoid to go to Italy. Three years ago, I did have to give a seminar in Torino, Turin in French. And I felt myself like twenty years ago, with all those guy, with the big parade, you know, they always...

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A lot of pomp.

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Yes, they love this. And I don’t. So, I don’t go to Italy.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Why was it that your mother sent you to join your father in Pau?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Because she thought it going to be much easier for her. I didn’t know at the time. But it’s going to be much easier for her to do what she was doing. Because I was not easy. I was not easy. I didn’t obey very good, when she say you stay in this room and you don’t move. I didn’t see really the big danger. You know, Italian people are very nice, I can go in the street and walk, you know. She say, “No, you stay here.” So, she said, “I will send you to your father. He’s going to take care of you.” But it was very dangerous where he was, so this is why they decide to send me in Switzerland.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Was your father involved in the Resistance also?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

I don’t think so. No, I don’t think so. No, he was too hot-blood. When it was bad where he was in Tarbes, and I don’t know how they found out about him. The only thing I remember, he was in a big place, sitting on a bench and this police truck came to pick him up. And it was about ten, twelve police man. And when from the witnessed friend who was with him, who survived, he was almost naked. He fight so much, and he was so strong. And this was the last we knew about him. Where was he killed? We don’t know. Where is his body? We don’t know. Where is he buried? We don’t know. So, he fight for his life, but... No, he didn’t have the diplomacy of my mother. She was more soft. For him, he was raised, he was orphan, so he was raised in Romania, the hard way. So, even when he came in France, for him, no discussion, he punch, that’s all. So.

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How did you find out what happened to him? 13

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Because his friend, who was at the time with him, saw the whole thing. And he witnessed. But he died a long time ago, this guy. The only thing I remember, I’m... some people are visual. You can tell me a story about a place you’ve been and I can see where you are. And if you describe the place, and the border of the sea, with the boats, with the mountain, the sun, the water comes on your leg, I can see the whole thing. The picture is very clear. So, as soon as he explained to me what happened, I can see the picture. I saw... I know where was the place. So, I can see this whole thing. And when this is in my memory, I remember.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

How did you get from Grenoble to Pau?

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I took the train. My father told me if anything happened, ““Go home, here is the place where is the money. Take the money, buy what you need.” So, I did go buy a ticket and I did go see my mother again. And she said, “Now it’s time for you to escape.”

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RG-50.549.05.0006

So how long were you in Pau before you left again?

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Well, you see we moved from Pau to Tarbes, which is very close, maybe fifty miles. So it was a few days, but I don’t remember. I remember the room he rent with the little kitchen. How long did I stay there? I have no idea, maybe two weeks, maybe two months, I don’t know.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

And you were traveling the same way that you had traveled from Paris to Grenoble?

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The same, by train. Train in France is very safe. It’s always on time and it’s very easy, clean. And I did have my way to speak to people and trust them and they trust me. And you know, you’re always ready to, if you today, take the train and see a boy, eight, nine years old and he’s by himself, you are going to tell him, “Can I help you? Can I do something for you? What is your life?” “Well, I left my father and I’m going to meet my mother, but I’m alone on the train.” “Do you have any money? Do you want to eat something?” This is a normal, right? And this is what happened. And people were very nice and again like I tell you, I got a little bit diplomacy. And I didn’t have any problem.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

What was your father doing during that time?

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In Pau and Tarbes? Nothing. He couldn’t work. He was just, probably waiting until the war is going to be finished.

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Was he...

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It was not before, long before the war finished that he died. I think it was a question of months, six month or seven month, something like this and the war was finished. He was not lucky.

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Was he living openly as a Jew?

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No. No, openly as a Jew, you dead.

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He had false papers? 14

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Yes. I know the name, I remember the name of my mother, the false name, Shauvel. But his name, I don’t remember. He did have a false name, that I don’t know. I remember one time, he did have, he became very ill. My father never got ill. He became very ill and when the doctor came, he palpate the stomach, and when he push in one side, he scream so hard, they thought it was appendicitis. And really it was a kidney stone. So, he was in the hospital for three, three, four day and he came out and it was all over. He lost weight, he was beautiful.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Was your brother there at the time?

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Yes. And my brother, Gaston, give him a hard time, because at the time he was seventeen, eighteen, something like this. Very good looking boy and for him, war didn’t mean nothing. He wants to have a good time. That was a big problem between my father and him.

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What did you do with your days?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Start to read as much as I could. Walking with my father. He used to... he loved to walk. So I walked with him. We did go buy some food. He was cooking. We never been to a restaurant. He was cooking. He was not such a good cook, but it was okay. [Laughing] But we stayed together most of the time. He always got an eye on me. And we stay together. But I was young and it’s hard for me to remember a lot of things. But I have a little picture in my mind of things we did together. I will show you a picture of the whole family when I was a little boy.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Are there any other things that stand out in your memory from that time?

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No, everything is very clear. Everything... the only thing which is not clear is the time, how long did I stay there? How many time did I go back and forth? But I remember where I was living with my mother. I remember one time, I told you she did have a gun in the book, and she did go bring some food in the hospital for French Underground soldier, who were wound. And we came back to the house and we went on subway, but not underground, over ground. The police, German police stopped the whole thing, make us going down and align everybody. And I saw my mother with the book under her arm and I said, “Phew, if they open this.”” They ask question, and up 1n the train again and we left. And I didn’t say anything to my mother. She didn’t say anything to me. End of Tape 1, Side B 15 Tape 2, Side A

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RG-50.549.05.0006

This is tape number two, side A of an interview with Dr. Paul Pressman. So you, when you, you were going back and forth a little bit between, between where your father was and where your mother was and that’s not all together... you’re not sure about how many times you went back and forth. Is that what you said?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Yeah, no more than twice at the most. One, sure, but twice at the most.

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What happened... at what point were you... were you separated from your father? Were you in, was it Tarbes?

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Tarbes.

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Were you in Tarbes with your father when he was killed and then you left? Or what caused you to leave for the last time?

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No, I was there when he was killed.

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You were?

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Uh huh. I was not with him, but I was there and this is how I knew about the story, because his friend told me.

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Okay.

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And this is when I did go back and see my mother, who tried to find out, but we couldn’t. I mean she couldn’t find out anything about it, because relation between... the situation didn’t... it was not easy. She couldn’t call anybody. She couldn’t call the authorities without revealing herself.

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Were you with, was your brother still with you at that time?

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Yeah, he didn’t live with us. He live with, in another place. I don’t know where. Where was he? What was he doing? I don’t remember. I don’t know what, where he was.

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RG-50.549.05.0006

So, when you returned to Grenoble and prepared to go to Switzerland, your brother was not with you?

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No, no. He never been, at this time he never been with me. The only time I saw him again, is when the war finished, I was with Mr. Lederman in Switzerland. And I said, “Now it’s time for me to go home.” And he say, “Patience,” you know, “let’s wait a little bit.”” And I said, “No, I know where we’re going to find... I know where I’m going to find my mother.” And he said, “You don’t want to wait a little bit?” Because it was a lot of thing going on. And I said, “No, no, I would like to go now.” So, he was a little bit reluctant to let me go, but he let me go. And I did go to Grenoble, from Switzerland to Grenoble where my mother used to live. And I didn’t 16 find her. So, I did go to, there was a Jewish association in Grenoble, so I did go there. And they said they knew about my mother. They said, “No, she did go back to Paris and her sister apartment, because her apartment was with people, with your brother, Gaston.” I said, “How can I go?” And they asked me, “Do you have money? We’ll buy you a ticket.” They bought me a ticket, train again. And I did go to Paris. And when I did go to the train in Grenoble, I met a young soldier, French soldier and I did the whole travel with him. He took care of me. And before we left, this lady from the Jewish association sent a wire to my mother and when I arrive in the train station in Paris, my mother and Gaston were there waiting for me. And we did go see, we did go to the apartment of her sister, who die in Auschwitz and it was nobody in the apartment. It was a very small apartment and oh, maybe... time for me is very hard... maybe two months later or three months later, the Jewish people from the camp, from Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald, all those places, start to come back in Paris. And it was a big hotel, called Hotel Lutecia (ph) prepare for clean them, to ask paper, if they got anything, you know. And Hotel Lutecia call us and say we have one Pressman. So, we did go there right away and it was Bernard. But we couldn’t see him. We didn’t know where he was. So, we wait, go, ask, couldn’t find him. The next day... so, we did go home at this apartment and the next day we receive a man, who said, “Your son did go to the old apartment,” who was let’s say like, five blocks from where we were. So, we did go by foot, walking and here, is coming, my brother. This is where we find out my other brother was dead. He was killed in Auschwitz. And Bernard was alive. Then we did go to the apartment of my aunt, sister of my mother, and life started to re-organize. We want to recuperate the fabric of my father. Everything was gone, but at least the wall was there and my brother decided to—because he was trained by my father—to open the place. And with my mother, they start to re-open the place and I started to go to college, to school, to school first. And after I decided to go to college. And it was a little fight, family fight, because they want me to be an upholsterer like my father and I said no, I want to study medicine. Everybody said, “But we cannot help you,” and I said, “I don’t ask for help. I will work myself.” I found a little room and I was working, doing a lot of things and studying medicine. After this, I became the doctor of the family. [Laughing]

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Let’s go back because I want to hear about your time in Switzerland and I want to hear, can you tell me a little bit more in detail about your journey to Switzerland?

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Uh huh. Yeah, it was a very, very interesting. I think I wouldn’t study all the study I did, if I didn’t go with Pastor Lederman and his wife. Because I speak always about him. His name was Charles, but his wife was something great. I mean, she was a teacher in school for children, but she was a very, very strong person. And when they accept me, I receive a tag around my neck. They put me again in another train from Geneva to, it’s a little town where they used to live, Rances. Very small town. He was the pastor of the town. And they came and picked me up. I didn’t know where I was. Mine parrain, my godfather was very, very cheerful, very big open mind, very smart man. They were a very nice couple, but they never could have any children. So, mine godfather was priest, so he said, “You going to go to the synagogue.” And I said, “I never been to a synagogue and I don’t want to go to a synagogue.” He said, “I’m sorry, you’re Jewish, you’re going to go to the synagogue.” So, every week I did have to go and it was far away, because there was no synagogue where he was. So, I did have to take the bus and I didn’t like it all. But he said, “No, you have a wonderful religion, you have to keep with it. Okay. And I don’t want for you, unless you feel, but you don’t have no obligation to come in my 17 church. If you want to come, no problem, but I don’t want you...” And I said, “Can I ring the bell?” And he said, “If you want to, Sunday morning you can ring the bell.” So, I ring the bell and he introduce me in a Sunday, when I was at his place. The second Sunday he introduce me to all the congregation. Swiss people are very, very nice people. And they treat me like the son of the house. They give me aroom. I remember they did have a German Shepherd, who was trained. He was in the same time—I don’t know how you call this—a priest who take care of prison people. And he used to go with his dog, in case one of the prisoner did go away, the dog is going to be able... He was a very, very funny man, very smart, very funny man. And I help as much as I could. I carry the milk, because they did have a lot of cow. So, I work outside of the school for three, four hour every day, carrying the milk from the cow to the company where they make the cheese. And it was really, a family. They want me to learn how to play piano. They did have a piano. And since I have my own piano and I play because of them. He always, he make me feel something I never felt before: the importance of knowledge. And this is when I start to read, this is when I start to write. I spend with them less than one year, but I think the foundation of my life was based on this time I spend with them, because they were so good and so hard. They were not... they were sweet, but they let me pass nothing. I did have my job to do and I better do it, otherwise... And it became normal with me and really I spend... I learn how to love nature. Nature in Paris, you don’t know how to differentiate champignon...you know what...?

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Mushrooms?

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Mushrooms. He took me to the woods, days, to say this one is not good, this one is good. Took the good one, brought it home, cook them, make a meal with it. I didn’t know all this. I didn’t have no idea. And it was very good for me, because it was a foundation of life. And every time up to this day, I think all the time about what they did to me as a kid. And I became a man because of them. And this is why, all the time, even like I said, I did go see them last, between ‘98 and ‘99, Christmas. And I couldn’t find them, they moved. I called everywhere. But otherwise, every time I go to Europe, I go see them. We spend beautiful time, quality time, even if we don’t speak together, he is the same. And she is the same. In my mind, she is the most beautiful woman I met in my life. She, the last time I saw her I think she was seventy-two and I think she was as beautiful as she was when I was a little boy. And he is the stronger man. It was really something. For me, it was a big chance to meet those people. And like I said, when I did go back and I found my mother. I said, “The first thing we can do, as soon as we get a little bit money, I want for you to meet.” And I think it was one year later, I bought a used car and I took my mother and we did go see them. And they were very happy and I was very happy to see them again. And like I said, I always, any chance that I did have to go, I did go see them, because I felt this... we were not family, but 1t was more than family. It was a good, a good thing. It’s a good memory.

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Do you ever think about the irony of that...?

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Yes. Oh, gosh. Life is irony, the whole life. When.... you know, when you become old, older than younger, life is an irony. Why this happened? What is the purpose of life? What is the reason of life? We don’t know. But I think everything is written, you in your life, another one in another life, everything is written. I say since a long time, we all have a ticket in the pocket. 18 You have the date of birth and there is no date where you’re going to go, to be gone, but really there is one, but you don’t know it. And it’s funny, because I say to a lot of my patients, we celebrate birth of people, but we don’t celebrate death and death is something of life. It’s the end of life. If you did have a bad life, you’re going to have a bad time to re-incarnate in a good life. But if you look your life and you said yes, I did have bad time like everybody else, but the good time were good. And when I remember all this, all the good time, it was wonderful. It’s experience. And in life, you cannot have all the time, good time. And on top of this, I say this too, some of my good patient with whom I have a good exchange, money is important, but compared to destiny, money is nothing. Destiny is what is going to make you what you are. You are going to be able to enjoy anything: a fruit, a good meal, good company. And when I say good company, feeling you are with somebody, friends, and you are on the same level. You can exchange... if you say something a little bit different, people are not going to laugh. They are going to say either “What do you mean by this?” or they’re going to say, “I know what you mean. I feel it, what you feel.” And this is the purpose of life, but it’s not every day you find things like this and it’s not every day you are in tune with things. But when you are, it’s wonderful and the rest, well, you have to do with. You receive a bad bill, you have a bad problem, you have a flat tire in the middle of nowhere... it’s tough, but you have to deal with it. You say, okay, I will remember next time I’m going to have a good time, this flat tire. It was bad, but in exchange look what good time I got now. And I think it’s a good philosophy.

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As far as the idea of destiny, do you apply that to the Holocaust? Do you think that the Holocaust, I mean when you mentioned being predestined, having something written down... do you think of the Holocaust that way?

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Yes, yes. And it’s very hard, maybe it’s because as a Jewish boy I can say this. You know, Jewish people accept Jewish jokes from another Jew, but if another one does the jokes, they don’t like it. Did the Jewish people deserve what happened? I don’t think so. Nobody deserve to suffer this way, but in the whole world, in the whole idea of human people, is it something who 1s going to serve humanity? I think so. I think so. How many people, who were in Auschwitz, in all those camps, are going to be able to use it? Minority. But the one who are going to be able to do it are going to bring something and we don’t know where we’re going to put this. On the newborn? There is a new book, written by a Rabbi, and people don’t like him very much, because he write, he wrote this book about reincarnation. And he said a lot of people call him, write to him and they say, “I’m born in a Catholic family. I’m Catholic. I go to the church every Sunday. I believe on Jesus Christ and I believe in God, but inside of me I got this Jewish feeling and I don’t understand why.” And it’s uh, how can I say, it’s surprising. And from what he say, he thinks they were in the Holocaust and they reincarnate in another corps, but they got this knowledge and they want to explain this. Long time ago, maybe not so long, but twenty years ago, you never spoke about reincarnation. A lot of people knew about, but they don’t want to say anything, because they say, “Well, they going to think I’m crazy.” Now it is more open. Sometime when I feel people react and it’s a small group... I give a lot of lecture on acupuncture, and acupuncture related to the human body and the illness of some people. And I go a little bit further and reincarnation and a lot of people react and say, “I felt this. I felt I was in another life. I cannot pinpoint, but I know this is not my first life.” So, I think, coming back to the idea of the Holocaust, it served a purpose, which one, I don’t know. But I’m sure it serve a purpose. If you say this to my brother, he’s going to laugh for three hour, but it’s okay. And I 19 mean, it’s his problem, it’s not mine. I don’t bring any proof, but I know there is a purpose. Can it be another Holocaust? Yes. The same one we saw? No. It’s going to be something completely different, but Hell is here on earth, so anything can happen. Anything.

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When you think in those terms, how do you, how do the Germans fit in? So... are they carrying out something that needs to happen? That is predestined? In other words, are they attuned with destiny in some way?

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To answer your question you have to read a little bit about Hitler, which very few Jewish people want to touch. I read the life of Hitler. He didn’t have any chance in life. He could not succeed to nothing. He was nobody. He came at the right time and somebody above used him. But he was nothing. Are we going to remember Hitler? Yes, for a long time, but not for the real purpose. Because who was Hitler? Nothing. Germany was ready. Germany need somebody like Hitler and if it was Hitler or George or anybody else, it would be the same thing. We speak about the devil. Germany, the German people at this time, did find the chief of the devil and everything was so simple to organize. You see in life, people who try to organize something, something small, a factory... they never make it. Because it’s not the time and somebody above Earth, who’s got the little button, don’t push the button, say, because it’s not for him. It’s not meant to happen, not with him. So we are not going to move.

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So you can kind of think of the Holocaust as being Divine will carried out and that Hitler was an instrument of that?

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That’s right, that’s right. Because the whole story like, and I don’t... Rothschild said something one day, “For you Jewish people if you like it or not, this is the truth. You have the low level Jewish people, you have the middle level Jewish people and you have the aristocratic Jewish people.” And it’s true. All the Jew are so smart, all the Jew are doctor? No. What about the Jew who is a fireman? What about the Jew who 1s a police man? He’s got the brain of Rothschild? No. We did have, I mean... we, they did have to show to humanity Jewish people are not the enemy. Because, example, Israel, you have prostitute in Israel. Jewish woman who are prostitute? You say this to my father, if he was alive at the time, there are Jewish prostitute? He would say, “Never. Woman, Jewish woman never can be a prostitute.” Yes my dear, there are Jewish prostitute. You have lot of people in Israel who are crooked. We are people and this should stop racism. And when you speak with... all black people are stupid? No. You have a lot of black people who are born in poor family. They don’t know what is good from bad. They have a father, but they don’t know who he is. And you compare this black man with a judge from the high circuit, who judge things? How can you? They are two black people. With Jewish people it is the same thing. This is why I think the Holocaust was made, one of the reasons in my mind, to show we are people. There are good Jew and you have bad Jew.

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