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RG-50.549.05.0006

So, the lawyers got involved because... why? Why did the lawyers get involved? 33

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Because it was Jewish lawyer and most of them came back from Auschwitz, but they been in Auschwitz for maximum a year, which was nothing. But when they came back, you know, they want to show, “We are lawyer, now we going to judge people who were mean, bad in camp.” Because if you know the story about the camp, the German, the SS were very, very few. Let’s say in a camp of two thousand Jew, there were fifteen SS in uniform and they give order. They say, “You are the Kapo of this room. There is two hundred people here. You are responsible.” You say, “I don’t want to’—Boom. “You are going to be the Kapo, you don’t want to be... so you are responsible of this two hundred people. Tomorrow morning I want ten Jew on the floor dead. I don’t care the way you do it.” So.

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Did you have, did your relationship with your brother Bernard change very much after the war, after he had been through these experiences in Auschwitz?

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No, it didn’t change because I didn’t know him very well. He’s much, I mean, you know, he’s older than I. I didn’t have, until I think it was two years ago, he got an interview in Paris from a French television. And he give me a tape and I came here and I listen to the tape and I was so surprised. I thought I knew my brother, but I didn’t know him. And I don’t judge him, but we are so different. He takes things one way. I told him one day, “I think you are a Buddhist.” And he said, “Why?” I say, “Because Buddhist is not a religion, it 1s a way of life. And Buddhist look on the floor and behind what he see on the floor and the rest he doesn’t see. The only thing is what is on the floor, that’s all. And this is why you survive.” Because the tape he was doing, the interview he did on the French television, I thought to myself, we didn’t live with the same parent. It was, you know, he was telling, we did have a normal life. Sure, we felt anti-Semitism around us, but it was not so bad. And I said to myself, we didn’t lead the same life. We didn’t go to the same school and we didn’t see the same thing. So, I did go see friend of our age, my age, his age, and I ask question. He said, “No, your brother is different. He’s a very sweet guy. He’s a good man, but he see things completely different.” I spend my Christmas with him, the last Christmas, ‘98, ‘99. And I did something. I spoke with him for an hour and I trying to explain to him, how, what is technique of forgiveness. He was mad. He was so mad. And I said, “Understand, forgiveness is not to forgive what they did, it’s just to save yourself. When you forgive them, at least you can breathe a little bit. Right now, every night you cry, you scream, because you are in the camp now. If you forgive, let them worry about their problem, but get rid of it.” What did I say? So, he send me, even two weeks ago he send me a book I couldn’t find here. And it is in French. I like to read in French. And on the side he wrote, “Try to understand why I cannot forgive.” We have two different way of thinking and until the last minute of his life he is going to cry and be mad, but he doesn’t want to. He doesn’t want to help himself. This is his life. End of Tape 3, Side A 34 Tape 3, Side B

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RG-50.549.05.0006

Okay, this is tape three, side B. When you say the technique of forgiveness and learning about the technique of forgiveness, what do you mean?

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RG-50.549.05.0006

When I was in France, on my spare time when I was a student of medicine, I learn hypnosis. I was very interested in hypnosis. I put a lady through surgery under hypnosis. And you have a lot of technique. And mainly this technique of forgiveness, which I didn’t know before and I was very happy to learn and practice this first on me. Every time I was mad at somebody or things I didn’t like, I did try to forgive the people I was speaking, I mean not openly, but in my mind. And this way it was easy for me to be able to discuss with people. Some people have a natural way of being patient. I’m not patient, so I did want to find something who is not going to make me patient, but make me a normal human being. And those technique of forgiveness 1s so... we hear this in the Catholic religion. Forgive and God will forgive you. I always say to a lot of people, I don’t need any church because if I have a problem, I speak with God directly. It is fifty percent joke and fifty percent true, it goes together. Because another human being like me, ah, how intelligent he can be? What can he do with God, I cannot do directly if I want to do it? And this forgiveness came back to me. And one day I was in a course of hypnosis and the teacher said, “Today we’re going to speak only about forgiveness.” And I thought, God, this is great, and I learned every bit of it. And I practice this with me and with my patient. And it was wonderful, because people used to say, “I didn’t think this way before, but now it make it so easy.” And I thought to myself, I know, because I practice the same way for myself. The more I can forgive things, easy my life is, and I come back always to the point zero. If you let, 1f you do a mistake and you go too far with this mistake, it’s very... longer you keep with, harder it is to come back. So, try to rectify the mistake as soon as you can, so this way it’s going to be much easier to work on it and it’s going to be quicker. So they teach you every time at night before you, when you go to bed, before you go to sleep, try to go very fast on your day and say, “Okay what happened today? What did I do that was not good?” So you try to forget yourself by being sorry and said “I’m not going to do this any more. I’m going to try to be better,” and also vice and versa, one way or another way. It’s amazing the way it works. It’s something very simple. The only thing is, if you are willing to do it, it’s perfect. If you don’t want to do it, it’s very hard. And this is why, I try. I stay about two weeks with my brother. I said, “Bernard, I’m sorry. You’re going to be mad, if you want to throw me out from your house, you do it. But every day I’m going to speak to you about forgiveness, because this is your only savior.” But he laugh, he became red sometime, he left the room, he took witness, friend. Okay, he took friend who thought like him. And you know, if you ask a friend, after all the story of the camp, he survive and he say, “Bloing (ph), face to face, can I forgive this?” People say, “No.” But this is not what I ask him. I don’t ask him to forgive this way. I want for him to forgive them their fault, they are the worst people. He is not a bad man. So forgive them for what they did to them and to you. But it was... I don’t think... maybe I put a little something on the ground, but for him it is too late. And I think, it’s not nice what I’m going to say, but I think also he enjoy a little bit his situation.

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Enjoys being angry? 35

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No. He enjoy to be, people feel sorry for him. And he likes this. I think so. But there 1s a lot of point I cannot clarify with him, because I don’t want to be pushy. And he’s not going to tell me anyway, because at the same time with him, Maurice was with him. And Maurice die when they were in Auschwitz. So...

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Does he feel guilty about that?

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We cannot speak about that, so I cannot be pushy, because... The only thing I know, the only little thing, and he cannot hide this, because he said it. You know, when you say something, it’s very hard to retract. When they arrive in Auschwitz, I don’t remember the date, but they shave every man and woman. And they put them in a big room. And it was not very light, it was very dark. And one moment he was walking and he turn around and he sees this guy on his back all the time. And he say, “Why do you follow me all the time like this?” And he said, “But I’m Maurice, I’m your brother.” He didn’t recognize him. He was... and for me, my interpretation is, he was already gone. He put a wall. Not because... because the situation. He said, “Okay, save your life. I save mine.” This is the way I felt it and this is the way I understood. Maybe I’m wrong. I don’t know. But this is the way I feel it. Because in any situation if you don’t recognize your brother, your sister, your mother, it’s like what I said before. Looks on the floor, “Everything here is mine, after this, I have nothing to do with it.”

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Was it difficult for you to... you talked about how empowering it was to learn this technique of forgiveness. Was it really difficult to get to that point where you’re forgiving not only people within your own life, but applying it to this larger situation of the Holocaust?

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Even... even now it’s hard. It’s not... it’s not easy. It’s not easy to forgive. You can forgive little things. But when it becomes so important, it’s not easy. Because you have to visualize, and I’m good, I know how to visualize. And when you see the whole picture... a month ago I read about this man in United State, who help people to die. I don’t remember his name. Cavajohn, something like this.

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Kevorkian.

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Kevorkian. Somebody ask him, doesn’t he feel like a Nazi by doing this. And I don’t judge. I don’t judge him. This would be another discussion. But they ask him, he doesn’t feel like a Nazi? And he said, “What the Nazi did to the Jewish people did help other people after the war.” Meaning I don’t like what the medicine does with rats, with animal, the experience they do, because I don’t agree on this. But when you judge human being to do experience like rat, there is no end. I don’t know why he said this and what is the basic idea. Maybe one day I am going to have the chance to speak with him. But what did he mean by this? In Germany, Der Spiegel did an article of a doctor, who was a doctor in the camp Auschwitz. He’s alive now. They made an interview and they asked the question, “Do you feel guilty about what you did?” Because they did horrible experience. And he said, “No, I did my job.” And people said, “What do you mean by your job?” He said, “I was military. They put me in a camp, but I save a lot of Jew. I kill a lot, but I save a lot. And everything we did, helped for this generation.” So, the question is, is he guilty? Is he not guilty? He sleeps every day. He doesn’t have any problem. Is a 36 normal human being able to sleep after killing healthy children, woman and man? It’s a big question.

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Do you have any answers for it?

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No, no, no. Because I found out 1n any case, it’s very hard to put yourself in somebody else body on a case like this. What would I do, if as a Jewish doctor, put him in a camp. What would I do? What road would I take? I don’t know. I want to survive? —Maybe. I don’t want to survive like a killer, I die. But what would be my position? I don’t know. I don’t have any idea. It’s hard.

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Do you remember when you first realized that you had a deep interest in medicine?

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From long time, when I was nine years old, I was very interested of the... and I won’t say to save people, but just of the science of medicine, of the human being. I’m, I don’t think I’m such a good man to say it was to save people. I don’t think so. But I was interested on how the body is made, why does the body react the way it is? And this is why I did go to acupuncture, because acupuncture made me discover a lot of things I didn’t know.

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Do you remember any significant moments when you realized that? Something that happened to you that made you say, “Ah, I really want to study this’?

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No, no, because I’m a bad student. So every time you said the word when I was young, about studying, go to school and buy book and read book... I said, “Oh, ’'m not going to do it.” But I did it because I was interested on medicine. But I was not interested on... my average, medical school, every school I did go was between seventy-eight and eighty. I never made a hundred.

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When did you, so in the time after the war when you were in France and you were attending school again, did you have the... how long did it take before you had the idea that you wanted to become a doctor and do you remember how that happened?

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Like I said, I was nine years old when I said, I will be a doctor. And all my path was on this direction. But you know, when you are nine years old... I have a patient, who came, a woman, came with a little boy. And very, very wealthy people. It was in Paris. And the boy was maybe five or six years old. And I said, “What do you want to become when you are to be older?” And he said, “I want to drive a garbage truck.” And I said, “Why a garbage truck?” And he gave me a good, very interesting explanation. And much later, I found out he was driving a garbage truck. He was eighteen, nineteen. Sometime you don’t know what drives you, why you want to do something and this is when I say God is so strong. Because sometimes God say, he wants to be a garbage driver, let it be. And he open every door he can. And the guy is very happy. We need people drive truck, drive garbage truck. We need fire people. We need policemen. So, why not? The funny part is, every time I... I used to take anybody who wants to have hypnosis, they want to know what they were in another life. Because everybody think they were king, queen, princess, you know? But I said to the people, “You know, there was a few King, but the majority were people working. Why don’t you think you’d be a normal human body working to make a living? You have more people who make eighteen, twenty thousand a year in United 37 State than people who make a hundred fifty thousand. But in another life, you want to be the one who make a hundred and fifty thousand?” [Laughing. |

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What was it... have you always believed in God?

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Always, always. God was always there with me. I have to, I have to be very, very honest. And if he didn’t have the time, he send me somebody to help me. So I never, never worry about, and even now, dying. Dying for me is anormal end. The same way when you believe in reincarnation, you know what is to be born again. And in the same time, when the time comes, it’s the end. And say, I don’t know the word in English... wise Indian, native from United State, they know exactly when they are going to die. They say good-bye to all the family. They go to the mountain, they pray God and they die. The family come the day or two days after, take the body and burn it, because this is the ritual. Now, people said, “I don’t want to die.” Why? If it is the time, it’s the time. You got a ticket in your pocket. You have your date of birth and you have a blank. The blank is when you die. Okay, suddenly the date goes on, it’s this day. And go on. [Laughing. |

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Can you describe your... this 1s going to be a difficult question, I think. Can you describe what you think of when you think of God? What do you think when you say, I’ve always believed in God? What does God represent to you? What does it mean?

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Very complicated to say. Some time, some time to make it easy on me, it’s a body. I speak with somebody, but sometime when I sleep... this is the real one, the real McCoy, because it comes like a voice. And in the morning, it happened to me not long time ago, I don’t know if it was a dream or did I see it, did I wake up? It’s very, very funny, but one thing I can tell you, it’s very comforting. I mean, I never been scared. I never been afraid because I heard something or I saw something. Lately, lately, I live alone here, lately I see things passing. Or I’m in the kitchen and I see a blur of something. Pfft. So, I say to myself jokingly, maybe soon it’s my time. And it’s possible. And it’s going to come. So, now, later... but it’s funny, because lately I see, maybe you are going in a few month or a few weeks, you’re going to hear, “Well, he pass away.” You got this on your tape saying, “Well, he spoke about it.” And it’s nothing to be scared of it. When come the time, come the time. You know people die forty years old. I’m sixty-seven. I did have a good life with the good and the bad, but it’s nothing, you know. I don’t want to live until a hundred and twenty with nothing, with Alzheimer or thinking about how am I going to survive, or... God is wise, he knows when to tell you to come back. And if medicine 1s strong enough to keep you alive, this is ridiculous. When somebody has to go, let him go. The best way, but let him go. And when it’s your time, it’s time. It’s nothing to be scared of it. I be back. [Laughing. |

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So, you’re, tell me if this is right. Your God, your idea of God or your perception of what God is maybe partially comes from your Jewish tradition, but partially comes from your own instinctive sense. And then maybe from other religious traditions, too?

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From the little I know about the Jewish religion, Jewish people, when they die, it’s finished. There is a God, but reincarnation, Jewish people don’t believe in it. 38

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Except for Hasidic Jews. And I don’t know if modern Hasidic Jews do.

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But the old basic religion, when you die, that’s it. It’s finished. I don’t think this come from the Jewish religion. On top of this, I don’t have any training with the Torah. Never read the Torah. Never read the Talmud. I don’t have any knowledge about the Jewish religion, neither from any other religion. Everything is by feeling. And God is always present. When you do good thing. When you do bad things. Sometimes it’s a little bit annoying to have this presence with you. When, when you have sex, you want to be alone. [Laughing.] You don’t want to have somebody who look over your shoulder, but 1t goes with the price. But yes, I have a relation mostly constantly. I’m not going to, you’re not going to see me in the streets screaming “I saw God!” No. But I have a feeling. I have this feeling. It’s very comfortable. It makes sense to me, and it’s very helpful. Because if I go back from my childhood until now, God was very good with me, because he never let me down. I never got, I've been depressed like a lot of people, but I got something who just come back in there, “Hey Paul, get up, that’s it.” And it’s true. I can have a few bad days and after this the sun comes back and everything is okay. So, I’ve been very lucky, I mean spiritually. And I don’t want to say this too much... I did have, when I was in France, I did have a lot of priest coming in my office. The reason is, my wife brother was a monk and he send me a lot of people, because I did have a lot of success. And if you want me, I can tell you a short story. One of mine patient was from Paris and his brother was a monsignor in Rome. He said, “You think this guy, you know, this doctor, can help me?” He was in bad, bad shape. And his brother, who lives in Paris said, “Let me ask him.” So, the monsignor calls me and he said, “If I send you the plane from the Pope and I pay all the expense and you tell me your price, would you come for a weekend at the Vatican?” And I said, “Yes, but you have to remember one thing, I’m born from Jewish parent.” He said, “God is Jewish.” I said, “If you take it this way, any time you want, any weekend.” So, he send me a plane and did go there, took care of him. And he show me my room and on the top of, above the bed was the Christ. And I said, “You have to take this out, because, you know, as Jewish, you tell me I kill him and trust me, I didn’t kill him. And I don’t think Jewish people did.” So, he took it away. We did have wonderful discussion. And when I came back, you know, he was very, very happy. We spend beautiful hour of discussion. And he said, “If one day you have the vocation and God...” because we spoke about God and I told him my relation with God. And he say, “If God ask you to become a Catholic, would you accept?” And I said, “If God ask me, yes I will. But Monsignor, I’m going to tell you one thing, maybe it’s going to be a Catholic, one more Catholic, but I will be Jew for the rest of my life.” And he said, “I think so.” [Laughing. |

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How did you gain such a reputation for your practice?

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I think it’s mouth, people... I did have all kind of people come in my office. Movie actor, little people, farmer brought me a chicken in a piece of paper in a Paris, in an office right in Madeleine, which 1s the best office you can find. They brought me cognac they did by themselves, like you call here moonshine. I did have all kind of people. And I will tell you the truth, if you stay with me here in my office when I’m working, you’ll see all kind of people come in here. Policemen, firemen, fire people, ninety-seven-year-old lady, ninety-two, this lady comes every two weeks. She’s ninety-two. She said, “You’re the only one who keep me on my feet. Please don’t go away before I die,” you know? Everywhere I’ve been, I did have all kind... 39 I don’t have a specific kind of patient. I have all kind. And I like it this way, because it’s fun. I speak with all kind of people. It’s interesting.

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When you were beginning to study medicine, when you started going to medical school, were you pleased by what you were experiencing, what you were learning? Did it meet your expectations, and your hopes?

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Not at all. No. Medical school teach you the basic. And when you out of school, you become a doctor. And the basic, even the way they practice medicine here in the United State, it’s not worse and it’s not better than any place else. When a guy put a stethoscope around his neck, his whole personality change. It’s like a cop, when he put on a uniform, he’s completely different. Take his uniform out, take his stethoscope out, take him out of the hospital... I know doctor, you can see them in the street and you want to give them a penny to go buy a coke... End of Tape 3, Side B 40 Tape 4, Side A

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This is tape number four, side A. Say it again.

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The most important is the people ego, who is important. It’s like being the president of United State, if you didn’t have the big ego, who wants to be president of United State. But doctor with big ego are completely different. They are not human.

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So, did you learn anything that you found really useful in medical school?

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Oh, yes, the basic, I mean you have to... it’s like, I like to play music and the best way to learn 1s to learn classic. And after this, you can play any kind of instrument you want because classical is so complete, so hard. You want to play Jazz? No problem. You want to play song? No problem. Medicine, you have to learn the basic. If you know how the machine works, you can do what you want after this. What I don’t like too much in medicine, when people specialize. You know, you specialize on one thing and you do one thing only and you speak to this doctor about something else, he doesn’t know. I do only stomach. If you have a problem with your stomach, I know everything about stomach. But the problem is, in the body, the stomach is part of the body. Maybe the stomach doesn’t work, and this is why I did go in chiropractic. Because with chiropractic I can do more than give medicine. And with acupuncture and chiropractic, I can do again more, because I can reach from every corner. And this is why I feel much more secure with what I know now than when I graduate from medical school, which I didn’t know nothing.

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And when you said, you talked a little bit about, about your, the word of mouth that went around and that you gained a reputation. What was it that you were good at? What was your particular aptitude?

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Patient likes to come in front of a guy, who have the time to listen, to sit down and say, “What is your problem?” And because I know all those little thing, I know what kind of question to ask. You know? If you tell me your problem and you go in some space in your body, I don’t want to know for many reasons, I want to be more specific. I bring you back to the point, I want for you to be specific. So, I can go there much easier than you said, “Well, I have headache. I’m very constipated. When I get my period...” and I’m confused. And when you confuse a doctor, he does nothing. But when the doctor knows how to direct you: “Okay, you have this, let’s emphasize on this place. When do you have this pain? Where do you have this pain? From where does it come? What time of the day? How many time a week do you have this?” So, you can bring all this to one thing. I put this with my knowledge of... I know if I’m going to put needle or I’m going to adjust your spine or I’m going to give you some light, natural medication or the three of it at the same time. And people said, “But it’s a miracle.” No, it’s not a miracle. It’s knowledge. And this is the way I treat you, not because it’s you, it’s because I treat everybody the same way. I would treat my brother the same way, my wife the same way and you the same way. You don’t like the way I do, go see somebody else. But this is my way of doing. If you came to see me, it’s because until now you didn’t have any success with any doctor. So, give me a chance. 4]

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You talked about when you started to discover chiropractic medicine. What exactly was it that captured your interest?

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Chiropractic? Chiropractic is based on nerve pressure. Everything come from the brain. Mine basic idea of psychosomatic is so strong. You can help yourself or you can destroy yourself. There’s a doctor, I saw this on 20/20 not long time ago. There’s a doctor, he must be around sixty-five years old in New York. And he take care of any, any low back pain with a hundred percent success just by explaining thing for twenty minutes to the patient. And I was listening to, I didn’t hear what he was saying for the twenty minute, but I understood the concept, and it makes sense. And he is in a hospital and all the other doctor laugh at him, but he’s got a hundred percent success, because he teach you how to say when you wake up in the morning and you have pain on your back, and you say, “Oh honey, I think I’m not going to be able to go to work. My pain kills me and it’s going to be a horrible day.” And if I can teach you how to speak to your back—and this is what he does—sure it’s going to be hard to start, but little by little the pain is going to go away. Everything, almost, is psychosomatic. Cancer, and I don’t speak about HIV and sickness like this, which is acquired. This is different. But I mean any, anything inside of your body is psychosomatic. You can make it worse or you can make it better. And if somebody for any reason, you have a baby, find a doctor who is going to be with you all the time. And if you have any problem, you be able to give him a call and said, “I feel this and this,” and he should have an answer to tell you. “It’s normal because of this or this or this, think this way and you'll feel better.”” You have to have a dialogue. The doctor is here to help you, to help your psychic. Everything is almost 99.5 percent psychosomatic. And if the doctor understand this and can direct you... You know a lot of people come to acupuncture and said, “I hate needle.” And I said, “If I tell you, you are not going to feel it.” Okay, I can tell this until tomorrow and if I put in a needle and it’s painful, he’s going to say, “You lied to me. It’s painful.” But if the patient is on the table and I said, “Okay, I’m going to put a needle. As soon as there is any pain tell me. I take the needle out. But the way, I put the needle and where I put the needle, you shouldn’t feel nothing.” 99 percent people say, “I didn’t feel it.” This is one form of hypnosis: to do acupuncture. “What did you do to me?” Patient who come bent and they have low back pain. Put them on the table, start to massage a little bit the back and speak to them, tell them about vacation. What do you like, flying, thing like this. I adjust them, if I didn’t speak to them, I couldn’t touch them. You touch them a little bit: “Oh, it’s painful.” You put a little bit under hypnosis and give an adjustment and that’s it. And the patient goes away. It looks simple the way I explain, but this is the way it goes. It’s very simple. Unless I play the doctor, “You lay down here. I’m going to adjust you. It’s going to be painful, but you have nothing for nothing. You have to suffer.” They say, “Just a minute, let me think about.” It’s psychosomatic, I mean, everything is in your head. “I’m going to adjust you, but I don’t know if I going to help you.” “Well, so don’t touch me. [Laughing.] Leave me alone.”

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You’re studying, you’re in medical school studying western medicine which has a very different approach than the one you’re describing right now. Was that difficult for you? That you have a very unconventional approach?

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I didn’t have any problem for one reason. I know God is going to put me in the right way, when it is the time. So I was not worried. And this is something else very important: is not to be rush by things. Everything is going to be in time. When I was very young, I want it now. And every 42 time I did this, they spank me. “Why did you spank me?” “Because you are too nervous, take your time. You’re going to get it. Justa minute. Don’t worry.” And this was hard, but you learn. It’s always the same. My father used to tell a story when he was in Russia. He said, a guy did have a horse and it cost him a lot of money to feed him. So, little by little this farmer start to feed him less and less and less, until one day he died, the horse. And the farmer said, “This 1s too bad. Just the day he was used to not to eat, he die.” And for me is the same thing. When I’m going to be almost perfect, ’'m going to go away. Waste of time? No, it’s not a waste of time, because it’s going to serve me for my next... my teacher of acupuncture in China told me, “Paul, it’s your first life as an acupuncturist. You okay, but you not wonderful. You need four life of acupuncture. The fourth life, you’re going to be perfect. And this is going to be the time, probably, you going to stay there. You don’t come back.” And I said, “It’s very encouraging because I have three more life to go. Okay, let’s do it.” [Laughing. ]

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When did you start getting interested in acupuncture?

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1965. I got this book, one of the very, very interesting doctor. I don’t know how you call this. There is a group of Catholic doctor and I even don’t remember the name in French. They are in black and white. The robe is black and white. This man is a very famous family. And he became an M.D. and he want to learn acupuncture, but the only way to learn and write a book about acupuncture, he did have to learn Chinese. So, he became an M.D. for a big family in China. He learned Chinese and he learn acupuncture. And I have his book with me. It was five, six year before I was born. Born in 1932, so it was ‘25, 1925. And he did a complete study of acupuncture. And I read this book three time and I said to a lot of people, if this house get in fire, the only thing I’m going to save is this book, because it’s got everything in it. And I read the book and I said, “If I’m lucky maybe one day I’m going to study acupuncture.” And I got a chance one day to go to Taiwan and I did go to the school. I start my study, came back with all the books. And since ‘65, let’s say I start to put needle in patient five year later. And I still study acupuncture and I will study until the rest of my life.

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What is it about it that interested you? What did you read in that book, for example?

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The mystery. Acupuncture is very mysterious. Yesterday my attorney call me for a patient of mine. They don’t understand why I adjust the neck of this patient and she’s got a low back pain. So, I say to my attorney, “You have two way, either you answer the way you want to this insurance company and you say what you want or you sue the company and I won’t charge you a penny to go to court. Because if this people think I’m going to speak to them on the telephone and explain to them by phone why I adjust the neck to release the pain on the low back, they are dreaming. I call you back in ten minute because I am with a patient.” So, I hang up, call him ten, fifteen minute later and he said, “I call the insurance company, they settle.” I don’t know what happen. I try to get him before you arrive and he 1s not in his office. But I will know what he said. Because I said, “You have two way, but I’m not going to speak with this insurance.” Sometime I’m very obnoxious... how do you call?

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Obnoxious. 43

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Obnoxious with people who don’t know nothing about medicine and challenge me. If you want to challenge me in medicine, put me in front of a bunch of doctor, who are going to understand what I am talking about. I can tell you anything and you’re going to say, “Oh yes, oh yes.” So, you're going to say “Well, this dummy, I don’t understand a word he is saying, but maybe he’s right.” By phone? Why do I adjust the neck to a low back pain? An insurance company”? [Laughing.] So, this is when I become obnoxious. But acupuncture is very mysterious. Well, it’s five thousand year old and it’s amazing. I don’t know how far we can go with acupuncture. But my experience was more than rewarding for me, I mean medically. What I can do with acupuncture. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. I don’t believe it myself. If somebody else would tell me what I know, I would say, prove it to me.

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Tell me, give me some examples. What have you been able to do with it?

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Well, I did go this morning to put teeth and he drill. And I said, “I don’t want any shot. Let me put a needle, acupuncture needle in, you can do what you want.” And the guy is, he teach dentistry here at UK. And he say, “It’s okay with me.” So, I just put two needle and I said, “Go ahead.” And he said, “You’re sure?” And I said, “Oh yeah.” So, he drill and he said, “You’re sure you don’t feel anything?” I said, “Listen, I’m human. I don’t like pain and if it was painful I would have said, ‘The hell with acupuncture, give me a shot!’ No, I don’t feel anything.” And this is the way itis. I have a young lady, who came and she did have suspicious part of the breast. So she said, “I would love to try...”—because she is a patient of mine of acupuncture— “You said you can anesthetize myself with acupuncture.” And I said, “Sure.” So, we did go to the hospital. I prepared the whole thing the normal way and I said, “Okay, you ready?” She said, “Yes.” So, I put needle. And the surgeon came, a little bit smiling. And I said, “Okay, cut.” And he said, “You’re sure?” And I said, “The lady agree, I agree, go ahead.” He did the whole surgery under acupuncture. She said, “I didn’t feel nothing.” And I was looking, because I said, “My God, if she, if she start to scream, I have to put the mask, give her the gas. And I’m going to put her down deep.” But she didn’t say anything. Did go to China at Christmas, this last Christmas. And this guy, when I did go see my teacher, he said, “Would you like to see something interesting?” I said yes. He said, “I’m going to do acupuncture to an open heart surgery.” And I said, “Can I come?” And he said sure. So, we did go. Needle all over, start to see section open, bring the heart, massage. The guy is covered here and the surgeon said, “You okay?” He said, “Yes, I’m okay, but’”—1it was in Chinese, I didn’t understand—“T would like to drink something.” So, they brought him a straw with orange juice and he drink and he was completely opened. [Laughing.] It’s very impressive, very, very impressive. So, it’s rewarding and I like it.

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You said that you lecture a lot and do seminars. On what subjects?

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Acupuncture, but it’s very basic, because acupuncture in United State is not in a high level. They, I have a lot of article from paper where they say if you have a headache, acupuncture can help you. If woman have bad menstruation, acupuncture, but you know they bring it to the lower part, not very high. You know, when you speak about open heart surgery, they say, “Just a minute.” They don’t agree. But they are interested. They want to know. So when, you know, every doctor have to do twelve, twenty four hour, depend on state. So, they ask me to come and Ad when I go and I give a seminar sometime one-fourth of the class go away, skiing and swimming. [Laughing.] It’s no problem.

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I’m going to change the subject back to the time that you’re in France after the war. I think you mentioned in the first interview that you were very anxious to have your mother meet the Ledermans once you were reunited with your mother. And did you go back with her to see them?

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Oh yes. I did go back with my mother. I did go back with my brother. Well, I... every time I go to Europe I go to see them. I just receive a letter from mine, I don’t know how you call this, godmother? And from what I understand he 1s not in this world anymore. I think my godfather die. So, she is there, she must be over eighty. So this, before the Christmas, this coming Christmas, I’m going to go back. And I try to reach her by phone to find out how she’s doing. It’s not the same address, it’s another address. So, I want to find out. But when I came back, I took my mother — oh very quick after the war, maybe two year after war or three year after the war. Because I did want for... my mother was a very interesting person. She didn’t have any, she didn’t ever study. She didn’t know how to write, to read. She was reading Jewish, Hebrew. And it took her about a week, a week and a half to read one paper in Hebrew. But she was very, she was very smart, not by studying, but by instinct. And she... people like her. The only thing I found out, is when people don’t have any background of studying to read aloud, when they get old, they lose this normal instinct of life. They are confused. And I did have a lot of very Ph.D. men, who got Alzheimer’s disease, so it doesn’t go with... but most of the time, these people, like my mother, like my brother, they don’t have the training of the brain to be able to hold on, on something solid. It’s only by memory. They don’t have any technique. And the older she got, harder it was for us to discuss with her. She was, imagine things, like one day she was watching TV and it was something completely normal and she got very angry. And I said, ‘““What’s the matter?” “Well, you didn’t see what they did on this TV?” And then I realize, well, she didn’t understand and she got mad. But otherwise, she was a very interesting person. I cannot speak about my father because I was too young when he died. But it, she was, she connect with my godfather when we did go see him, because my godfather was also very, very educated, a very interesting, wide idea of the world. And they did have, I remember a very, very interesting conversation, in a high level, not “It’s a nice day today. The food was good.” It was... and mine, his wife of my godfather, she was a teacher. I was in love with her, because she was, I think, the most beautiful woman in the world. She was smart. And I was afraid from her, because she was a teacher. At my age, a teacher you don’t fool around with. But I saw her later when I was a growing man and she was older and she was the most beautiful woman I had met. [Laughing. |

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When you call them your godparents, was there any formality or are you just calling them that because... was there any formal way...?

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No, because I think they deserve to be called this way. In French it’s parrain, and her it’s marraine. In English it’s godfather. And I don’t know if we have a name for a woman. But every time...eh?

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Godmother. 45

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Godmother? Every time I used to write to them and even lately, I always, “Cher Parrain, cher Marraine,” because this is what they are for me. They were very generous with me and I try to be as much as I can with them.

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Did their influence continue to be very active?

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Yes.

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So your relationship was... can you describe how your relationship grew after you stopped living with them?

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They were mine, smart parent. What my father and mother couldn’t give me, because they didn’t have it. My mother spoke to me. She tried to be as much as she could, but they never study and they didn’t know... you know, when I said I want to become a doctor: “Why? We have a good business. We do upholstery. You can make a good living. Why would you like to be a doctor? We don’t have any doctor in the family.”

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Did you tell the Ledermans when you wanted to become a doctor?

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Oh yeah.

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Yeah. And what was their response?

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Oh, he was, my godfather was very, very, both of them were happy. Because like I told you, I was a poor student. And they said, “I don’t know if you are going to make it, but it’s an excellent idea. Do it.” They both were very, very, very happy. And...

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So, did you keep in touch with them by writing letters? Or did you visit them a lot?

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Both. I wrote letter all the time and every time I did go to... I left France in 1960, 1983 to come in the United State. But otherwise I was in their place anytime. They, they, you know, he was a Protestant priest and after this, he likes to show people he was poor. It was his way to... he was not poor, but he wants to show. So, he bought a little place on the border of the lake, but on the other side to go to his house, you have to cross the railroad. And I... he was very, very severe. And one day, I ask him, you know, very... “Why did you buy so close to the railroad?” “I’m not rich. ’'m poor. I’m a priest. I cannot afford to buy like the rich people, so thank God I can have this thing.” I never ask anymore. [Laughing.] Because, he was, you know, this is what I can afford and that’s it. But he was a good man, very, very good man. Very, not religious like a priest, you know, not the man... one day I did go to, you know the Club Med? It was my last year in medicine and they ask for a good swimmer to teach water ski and I was good on water ski, so I put my name and I been to Greece to teach in Club Med for two month, for the summer. It was beautiful, because it was... End of Tape 4, Side A 46 Tape 4, Side B

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This is tape four, side B. So, you were saying about the...

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This group of Swiss people came and we start to, and I said, “You know, my godfather 1s from Switzerland, from this place.” He say, “We are from this place!” And he said, “Just a minute. How 1s he?” And I said, I describe him. He said, “This is Pastor Lederman.” And I said yes. He’s the only one to be like this. [Laughing.] He was known because he was very artistic, very wild and doing things, the way we have to do things. You know, you don’t wake up in the morning. First thing you do, wash your face and shave. You cannot go on without shaving. You know, he did have a lot of principle, but even up to this day, a lot of thing I do, I remember he teach me. I remember he told me, “Oh, you have to do this, you have to do this. No, no, no. Don’t do this, this way, do it this way.” And without thinking I do it the way he told me. So, it means sometime when you have a guru in life, or parent who direct you the right way, you’ll remember things, and it helps you for the rest of your life.

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You mentioned a little bit earlier on, that you, did you say in around 1963 or so, you got married? You got married after the war, sometime in the early 1960s?

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I think I was twenty-three.

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Okay, so earlier than nineteen...

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Well, my daughter is forty-two. I’m sixty-seven. We have to count; I’m not good in math. But it was later, I mean like I said after the war I was thirteen. So, let’s say ten years later I met this lady and we got married. I met, she was an artist, painter and medical school was next to, and the cafeteria was together. And that’s where I met her.

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Did she, was there, did she understand your history as a Jew and as a Jew who had more or less had gone through the Holocaust and what you’d experienced with losing your family? Was that an issue?

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No. No, she, it was a very, how can I say? Very Catholic family. And everything was going fine, everything was okay, until one day in Paris... we used to live a little bit outside of Paris, like you would say in Nicholasville, compared to Lexington. And one day it was a strike, no car, I mean, no bus, no train, nothing. And my brother-in-law, who was my age, studying to become an architect, did have a motorcycle. He said, “If you want I can take you to the school, to the medical school.” And his school was very close, too. “You can ride on the back of the motorcycle.” And I said okay. And we rode there and coming to a fire place, you know, the red light? The red light didn’t work. He didn’t see the car and this car hit us and I flew over and fell down, but I didn’t get anything serious. He did hit the car directly and he broke all his mouth, his right knee. Bad accident. Bad, bad accident. They took us to the hospital and even to this day, my daughter told me this yesterday, they going to do surgery on his hip. But he did have bad, he lost all his teeth. He was stitched all over. He stopped studying architecture. With the money he touch from the insurance, he bought a moulin...... 47

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Like a windmill?

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Windmill! He bought a windmill outside of Paris, about two hundred miles from Paris. And he became a farmer with his mother, his father. The whole family moved there. But his mother never forgave me to be in the motorcycle, because she said, if I wouldn’t be in the motorcycle, he wouldn’t be so badly injured. So, since this accident, there was a bad tension between us, between the family and me. Did it bring to the divorce? Maybe yes, maybe no, I don’t know. But life became much more difficult, more and more. And even my brother-in-law used to get mad at his mother every time she bring up this. Because every time he never complained. Ever. And sometime he was in bad shape. But his mother said, “Yes, if you didn’t have this accident.” And he say, “Please you stop.” And he always defend me all the time, but she was, she was mad.

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Do you feel that, that was really the reason... I mean, was she looking for an excuse to be angry at you?

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I don’t know. I really don’t know. I don’t know. Very hard to know what’s going on, on the head of somebody else. And we never got the chance to discuss. She didn’t want to discuss. There was no possibility. The father, he was a bird. He was not on this earth. [Laughing.] He was good man, but out. So, he never want to discuss about this. He didn’t know anything about it. He didn’t want to know about anything. And like I said, my brother-in-law didn’t, never ever, ever said anything. Even when I was divorced, he always ask about me, what am I doing and everything is okay. But the mother was mean. She was mad.

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What about you being Jewish and marrying into a Catholic family?

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We never spoke about. We never... my daughter is born. And we decide not to give her any religion. When she grew up, she met a man, got married. He was Catholic. She became Catholic. And... but I don’t know. I don’t know if the religion was involved or not. I don’t know.

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Did you, you had talked about feeling anti-Semitism when you were living in France. Did you have any concern about that among your wife’s family?

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You know, you married somebody, you don’t marry the family. For me, it didn’t matter. I was happy with her. I don’t have to love the mother, the father and the whole family. I don’t know if it was against Jew or really I don’t have no idea. No idea. Never asked the question. The feeling between my mother and them... I think they saw each other for my wedding and that’s all. They never spoke together. They never got together. It’s very difficult to explain.

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What about anti-Semitism on other fronts in France after the war? Did you experience any overt anti-Semitism?

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Oh yes, absolutely. This is... even today, you can take the subway and on the subway in Paris, you can see “Jew go Home” or “Jew go to Israel” on the subway. It means, you know, it’s like do we have anti-Semitism in United State? Yes. Why, we don’t know. But one day I spoke 48 with a woman from Lexington, she’s a doctor. And she does acupuncture and she one day asked me if she can come and watch me. And we start to speak about things, I don’t remember exactly what it was and she said, “Oh, don’t worry. The Jew, they have all the money. They have all the bank. Don’t ever trust a Jew.” [Laughing.]| I didn’t know what to say. And I said, “I have to tell you just now, I’m Jewish. And why do you...” and she said, “Oh, because maybe you are not like this, but the Jew have all the bank. They got all the money in this country. They are politician. They going to ruin the whole United State.” And I said, “Well, if you feel this way, I think this meeting is going to be the last one.” And it was the last one. But, you know, when somebody is... at this point I know I’m going to be with an enemy all the time. So tell me who is my friend, I will find my enemy.

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And you mentioned in the last interview that you didn’t really feel comfortable in France.

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No. I don’t feel comfortable anyplace.

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That’s what I was going to ask you, whether the United States is more comfortable?

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No. United State is a nice place to live. It is much simpler than France. You can be independent, more than in France. You can have, they don’t look at you like in France. They spy the same way in United State, but it’s a different way. It’s much easier. In France, they spy on you much more. And they don’t have the law you have in United State. You know, the Constitution here, it’s very well made. Freedom of Speech is very important. We don’t have freedom. United State is a Democracy. France is a Republic. And it can take hour for me to explain to you, but I think you know the difference between Democracy and Republic. And here you can live... I was surprised how many people was killed in United State by crime last year. Twenty-five thousand people die. It’s a lot of people. We don’t have so many dead in France by crime because we don’t have this access of gun and all this. But there is no safe place on Earth. And America is one of the most happy place you can be. You can live a normal life, almost. You can buy a car when you want. If you are courageous and work hard, you can make money, enjoy yourself. But the limit is very short in United State. And what is the limit? My idea of limit 1s six hundred thousand dollar. Not everybody can save six hundred thousand dollar, but after six hundred thousand dollar—and if you want, one day I’m going to explain this to you— everything, if you die or your husband die and leave you a million dollar, you’re going to get six hundred thousand dollar. The rest goes to the government, no matter how you go. They... the IRS law are very, very well made. They give you this, they take this. They get you anyway. So if you have a little bit, if you are low profile, United State 1s perfect. I am a low profile doctor and it’s okay. I like this life. I don’t have any problem. But people who become rich, they do, they can, but they have to know how to do it. I wouldn’t like to be rich in the United State. [Laughing]

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Because you don’t support the way that the government spends the money that you have to pay them?

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Uh huh.

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What are your political outlooks, affiliations? 49

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I don’t have any political idea, because for the simple reason, anybody who wants to go, want to be a politician has to put money in his pocket. Because people are stupid. If people would be intelligent, they wouldn’t vote. Neither for Clinton, neither for Bush, Democrat, Republican, not vote. We don’t want you. I would vote for Perot, just to see what he can do. But he doesn’t play the game. Perot is a smart man, but he doesn’t play the game, so no there. It’s not a dream. But let’s say maybe this movie actor, what’s his name? Is going to present himself to become the President of the United State. Warren Beatty? No.

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I didn’t realize...

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Yeah. He present, maybe he’s going to present himself. But otherwise... what Clinton did 1s a shame for the country. I don’t think he deserve to be called President of United State. He is a... but Bush was not better. “Read my lips, no more income tax,” I mean, and look what he did. And the people go, they’re going to vote for his son, or they’re going to vote for another jerk, moron, who is going to be the President. The people need to be whacked in the head. And it’s okay. I don’t belong to the people. I’m not a politician. So I enjoy myself.

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So you don’t vote?

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Yes I vote. Yeah, I vote because I think it’s a duty. I vote, but just because I have to. [Laughing. |

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