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/nhuman: Doc.Dough & DanAyo as youngsters I came across this old image of Doc & I at around 7 or 8 years of age.I'm the cute one, he’s the smart one.“Laughter doeth good like a medicine...”Danny /nai: Keeping alien invaders out of your dough! Lol!    Please report any suspicious characters hanging about your kitchen!  So cute!

/nhuman: Abysmal failure to create a starter I have been trying for over a month to get a starter going, but it's no use. What frustrates me is that this is not my first attempt at creating a starter. I had created a starter a few years ago, then for various reasons I ditched it and I created it another two times with no trouble at all.This time it's a complete failure. My previous starters were either an all rye starter or a wheat starter and they were all quite successful for the most part. Now all I get is a jar of starter with no activity whatsoever. My latest trial is with a mixture of wheat and rye flour. Before feeding it every day it smells very faintly like paint, but otherwise it's not at all active. Am I overfeeding it or underfeeding it?I would appreciate some basic advice because I realize that I have to go back to basics to have any success.Is there a schedule and relevant flour to water (and starter) ratios that I could try? I can control the temperature using a thermostat in my homemade proofing box, but I don't know what it should be. High or low? Currently I have it at 20° C. /nai: Best method I’ve ever used: The Pineapple Juice SolutionPaul

/nhuman: Hooch and nothing happening Hi! I'm so glad I found this site! Been reading, watching, and doing some more reading about creating a starter but I can't seem to successfully get mine going ☹️ or maybe i'm just impatient and expect mine to turn out like all of the videos out there! ☹️I'm on Day 4 of my starter/s and I noticed a hooch always present after a couple of hours after feeding.  I currently have 3 starters:Starter 1 - 50g AP flour / 50g bottled water / covered loosely with lid / left at room temp / feeding schedule: 1:1(AP flour):1, every 24hrsStarter 2 - 50g Rye flour / 50g bottled water / covered loosely with clingwrap / left at room temp / feeding schedule: 1:1(50 rye/50 AP flour):1, every 24hrs Starter 3 - 50g Rye flour / 50g bottled water / covered loosely with lid / left at room temp /  feeding schedule: 1:1(AP flour):1, every 24hrs Day 1 - all 3 were active and double in sized with lots of small bubbles.Day 2 - activity lessened, still had small bubblesDay 3 - none of them grew and definitely less bubbles.  Hooch formed in all 3 a couple hours after being fed. I stirred all of them and let them be.Day 4 - still with hooch and slight bubbles on top but no other movement. I've noticed they're more runny than when they 1st started. They all have a tangy smell but nothing unpleasant. Here's a photo of Starter 2 (left) and Starter 3 (right).  Didn't take a photo of Starter 1 because it was just fed so there was no hooch or bubbles yet. Now on to my question/s... should I just keep feeding them every 24 hours with the same ratio? Why has there been no movement since yesterday?The same thing happened with my first starter a couple of weeks ago.  I got worried I killed it so I threw it away. I'm trying not to panic and worry this time around, which is why I'm so glad I found this site to ask for help. Any advice/tip would be greatly appreciated.TIA xx /nai: So far, it sounds like you So far, it sounds like you are doing just right.  Something I discovered when I started trying to get my first starter going, was that it does not work like all of those videos claim.  Lol For an in-depth explanation of what is going on inside a starter during the beginning of the process, I highly recommend Debra Wink’s articles on The Pineapple Juice Solution: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1 http://www.thefreshloaf.com/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2 What are your kitchen temperatures like?  If your kitchen runs warm, you may need to alter your feeding schedule a bit.  Some of the more experienced members here can probably give you more insight on your hooch issue, but my suggestion would be to simply give everything a stir around the 12 hour mark.

/nhuman: Finding it difficult to use starter in summer Hi allI have a starter which I usually feed 100 grams flour every night to 100 grams of water.During the winter I can usually have my starter ready for baking after a 12 hour feed.Last summer I didn't seem to be feeding my starter enough and once I saw some different than normal colour I recommenced a new starter.This summer my starter spends a lot of time in the fridge and I feed it about once a week. Last Thursday I got it out of the fridge and started feeding it twice a day around 100 grams at a time as usual though each time I check the smell of my starter there is quite a sour vinegar smell. I can't seem to find the right time to perform a float test. What are some strategies that I can use should I wish to bake a sourdough loaf during the summer? Or should I just be patient and wait for the winter bake? Thank you. /nai: Summer is warmer and you can do many things to slow down the fermentation of the starter. Try one or more of the following:lower the hydration of the starter.  Reduce from 100% to 50 or 60%cool the starter after it starts to rise at room temp, preferably about one third to peakadd salt (4%) if refrigeration is unavailable orbuild a two pot refrigerator with wet sand between the potsReduce the inoculation size of the starterfeed plain flour instead of whole flourchill the water or mix with iceThat's  all I can think of at the moment.  :)To slow down dough, try reducing the recipe hydration.   Or reducing the amount of starter in the recipe. Start with half the starter amount adding the differences in water and flour to the recipe instead of the starter.  Cool or chill the flour and/or water. Used crushed ice in mixers to lower dough temp.  Draping dough bowl or shaped loaves with a damp towel can also help cool dough.  Chilling the bowl before using or during by setting inside a larger bowl with ice water can slow dough down a lot!    Brain out.

/nhuman: I can't figure out this flour Hi All,I was wondering if anyone can help me: I'm at a bit of a loss. This may sound stupid, but I'm having some trouble with a new bread flour I'm using, and it either over ferments really quickly, or under proofs during bulk, despite the dough looking ready. I'm using Marraige's Uppermost Bread Flour, and I'm not sure if anyone here is familiar with it. Marriages are a pretty good brand, and I've enjoyed their flour before. Anyway, since I started using it, I've had loaves with very little oven spring, small ears, poor crust, and/or massive holes tunnelling all the way through the loaf, despite the dough mostly feeling and looking ok throughout bulk. My current recipe is pretty straight forward:900g Marraige's uppermost white bread flour (12.7% protein)100g Strong brown flour (Doves Farm Organic, 13% protein)700-750g water200g starter (strong white/strong brown blend at 100% hydration)20g saltI usually do a 20-30min autolyse, a slap and fold for about 3 minutes, then 6 stretch and folds every 30 mins over 3 hours, and a small bulk ferment of 30-45 mins (depending on the temperature of my kitchen/the dough: this could be more)On my first bake with this flour, the dough suddenly became very slack after 3 hours stretch and fold at 74F. I took it out to divide and pre-shape immediately, but It was sticky, and wouldn't hold its shape, and left me with terrible loaves after it's final proof. The second time was the same. Both were at 75% hydration.I then did a much cooler fermentation, which my starter usually enjoys more, but this time the loaf was hugely under proofed, with a massive hole in the centre. This had around 72% hyrdration. Last night I made up a batch, with a colder bulk ferment of 68-69F. I did a 20 minute autolyse, a 3 minute slap and fold, then 6 stretch and folds, 30 mins apart, then a bulk ferment on the counter for 1 hour. Divide, pre-shape, and then final proof in the fridge for around 10 hours. The dough felt good, it looked good: it was soft, good extensibility, lots of bubbles, and about a 30% rise. This morning it had a small rise in the banneton, the poke test seemed positive, filling in slowly, and leaving small indentations. However, the loaves are not great. I'm heartbroken. This is the first time, in a long time that I've had a problem like this, and I usually get wonderful loaves from this method, and recipe. It's killing my confidence. My only saving grace is that the loaves taste ok.Can anyone suggest anything? Has anyone had similar issues? I am so confused. I hope this makes sense! Pictures below of the under-proofed loaf. Happy to clarify any questions.Many thanks,Natasha. /nai: Flour? Apart from the tunnel the bread pictured looks pretty good to me.I'm a UK baker and familiar with many types of flours including Marriage's.What flour were you using beforehand?

/nhuman: Purchased San Francisco Starters If I purchase a S.F. sourdough starter off the internet wouldn't it eventually lose that S.F. bacteria (and taste) over a period of time when I'm refreshing it here in Ohio? /nai: In my opinion, yes. I have In my opinion, yes. I have rec’d starters from a number of bakers throughout the US. After feeding them with my flour and placing them in my environment in short order, they become indistinguishable.Others may not agree, but that has consistently been my experience.Danny

/nhuman: Warthog Wheat for Sour Dough I have been trying a number of specialty wheats.  I just had some fantastic results with Yecoro Rojo.  I tried the same formula with Warthog and ended with a flat loaf. So what is going on with that wheat?On Breadtopia it says 13.3% protein which should be plenty, That is where I order it from.  Janie's Mill lists it as 9.6% protein.  As soon as I mixed it for autolyse, I thought  - there no gluten in this wheat.  It felt like the soft wheat I have gotten accidently  when I ordered hard wheat but clearly did not receive "hard" wheat.  I have read that the protein content of this wheat can varying quite a bit based on the winter - wet vs dry, warmer vs colder, etc.  I did persevere and the bread was OK just squat and dense - I let it rise in the Romertopf and baked it from a cold start.  I have also heard how the favor is wonderful.  I was not really impressed although my kids thought it was quite good.  In contrast, the Yecoro Rojo I thought was some of the most delicious bread I have ever had.Formula for both was: 90% water, 2.5% salt, 3% honey, 20% inoculation with 100% hydration whole white winter wheat.  I use the flour straight from my grinder. /nai: Yecoro Rojo comparison Here is a pic of the Yecoro Rojo for comparison - same recipe

/nhuman: My starter smells AWFUL, and isn't rising according to plan :( I'm on day 10 of feeding my starter 50/50 whole wheat/unbleached AP flours. My kitchen is a little cold but iv been storing it in the microwave with the light on. It bubbles a good bit. It rises, but not very much. It Also smells like vomit sat in the sun for days, admittedly it seems to be less so as the days go on. I suppose my questions are, is it supposed to smell this badly? What can I do to get this starter ready for bread! /nai: Most starters go through a Most starters go through a period of smelling bad, but this usually happens in the very early days.  In the beginning, the first micro-organisms that take root are some not-so-pleasant bacteria, and they can generate some funky odors.  As these bacteria do their thing, they start the process of acidifying the mix, which paves the way for more pleasant bacteria.  These serve to acidify the mix even further, which finally paves the way for wild yeasts to revive from dormancy.  For a more scientific explanation than that, check out Debra Wink’s Pineapple Juice Solution articles.http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1http://www.thefreshloaf.com/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2For the sake of helping to figure out what you have going on with your starter, can you tell us: What are you using for a water supply? (City/well/bottled;  is it treated in any way?)What quantities are you mixingWhat’s your feeding scheduleAmbient temperatures

/nhuman: Flying Crust Yet Again... Please Help me with my flying crust problem! I've posted on this before when I was using the sourdough recipe from Richard Bertinet's book CRUST.  I always had flying crusts and concluded that my home wasn't cool enough for the super-slow rising time, thus over-proofing.  Now I'm not so sure that was the problem and here's why... I used the sourdough recipe from The Bread Baker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart and got a flying crust.  But the giant cavern wasn't at the top, it was smack in the middle.  The rest of the bread seemed dense with few holes and then there was the cavern in the middle with dense crumb on the top and bottom!  It was delicious, but ugly and a bit dense. So can anyone help me diagnose why?  Here are the factors.  First, it's been super hot today and I may have let it rise a bit too long?  He says 3-4 hours and I let it rise 4.  The air conditioning is on in our house so it's not super hot. Also, the dough was pretty hydrated.  I misted it with oil, so I'm relatively certain it didn't dry out.  I also covered it with a damp cloth. Another factor, I'm not sure if this makes a difference...is that I put it in my linen-lined baskets.  I put plenty of flour to try to keep it from sticking, but it still stuck some, so I had to turn over the baskets super fast on top of the peel and kind of slam them down so the dough would drop out of the baskets in one piece. The things I think I should try: --1, proof it less time--2, don't slam it ;-)   Maybe put an abundance of flour in the baskets, or do a batard or something and put it on a sheet tray rather than a basket--3, try to get the dough a little drier, not so hydrated Can any of you experts give me any advice so I don't keep having the problem?  What do you think's causing it and what of these solutions do you think are best??? /nai: So many things that are So many things that are 'possible' here... realistically, your best bet for concise help would be: A. Post complete recipe, including any changes you made, and how much actual time you had between each phase. Also include any folding techniques you might have used. B. Pictures. These will be the best things we can use to start throwing ideas out there. Need pic of dough at autolyse or end of mix stage. Pic after first rise. Pic after shaping, after proofing, on the peel and out of the oven. For starters : ) I'm suspicious of the shaping, but for sure, overproofing and rough handling are going to contribute to negative outcomes. - Keith

/nhuman: Large gas bubble after shaping I am making Vermont sourdough with whole wheat. I have made it once before and had to add a lot of water (more than the 65% in the recipe) to hydrate during the autolyse. This time with a different flour I again needed more water and added up to 70% which probably should have been enough if I had kept mixing, but my amateur brain just added another 5% making a wet, slack dough (as an aside, this was hugely instructive for me as I think hydration is why I have had issues with the FWSY recipes). Once BF was complete, the dough was still very sticky so I shaped the boule aggressively and when I was placed it in the banneton I noticed a huge gas bubble under the skin! I wasn’t sure if this would lead to crust rupture or huge tunneling bubbles so I turned it out, let it rest 5 min, degassed gently, and reshaped. Still had a big bubble (~5-7cm/2-3” diameter as well as some smaller ones) and strong skin. I ended up popping the biggest with a fork and putting it into the fridge to proof. I’m wondering if I need to be more gentle when shaping to avoid this and if it really was going to affect the final loaf? Do we want to avoid a strong skin? Should I not have popped the bubble?Thanks for all the knowledge in advance /nai: The hydration trap is an easy The hydration trap is an easy one to fall into, whether you’re new to bread baking or just new to a specific recipe.  During the autolyse stage, there’s always a point where you thin there’s no way in hell that you’ve got enough water, but if you just keep mixing you’ll reach the point where all of the scrappy bits become incorporated.  I’ve made the same recipe twice now, and the first time I added the whole amount of water (including what the recipe said to reserve for later) during the autolyse mix, as it seemed the dough was going to be too dry.  The dough was a sloppy mess for the remainder of the bake.  The second time, I left the reserve amount out of the autolyse and just kept mixing.  I added the reserved  water when adding the levain and salt, but even though I used the same amount of water as the first time, the second dough never got soggy. You do want to see a strong outer skin on your shaped dough.  That thin gluten membrane is the only thing that keeps the dough from slacking into a puddle during the bake and turning your loaf into a frisbee.  As for the bubbles, I have to think that a bubble on the skin will turn into a bubble on the crust.  Probably one of those personal preference kinda things, but others may have a better understanding of the do’s and don’ts regarding bubbles than I have.

/nhuman: First Starter Attempt So a little over a week ago I tried making my first starter... It seemed to be going fairly well, it probably doubled in size within the first hour, before deflating. However, since that first day, I haven't seen it rise at all. It has developed a sour, beer-like scent, but as I said it has remained at roughly the same level. At first, I assumed it would simply take more time, as I'm just keeping it at room temperature, but now I'm thinking I may have made a mistake. Any ideas as to how I may have messed up? /nai: Hi, Bored Baguette! Welcome Hi, Bored Baguette! Welcome to the wonderful world of sourdough baking, located conveniently at the intersection of cutting edge science and voodoo mysticism!  ?  You are currently experiencing a very common phenomenon, where the reality of managing the evolution of a colony of living micro-organisms doesn’t quite match up to the hype of hundreds (if not thousands) of 5 minute internet videos that promise a healthy active sourdough starter in just 4 easy steps. The plus side is that you are on the right track.  The other plus side is that you’ve come to the right place! If you share some details with us (quantities, flour type, ambient temperature, etc.) we’ll be happy to help you tweak the process.  In the meanwhile, keep going with your starter, as smelling sour and beer-like are definitely encouraging signs. If you are up for a wee bit of not-so-light reading, I highly encourage you to read the two-part article by Debra Wink that deals with the Pineapple Juice Solution.   This article gives a very detailed look into just what exactly is happening inside of a starter as it evolves from being a clump of flour and water to being a thriving ecosystem of wild yeasts and lactic acid producing bacteria. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1http://www.thefreshloaf.com/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2

/nhuman: Starting to Get Frustrated Hi Everyone - newbie to the site here. Been baking bread for almost 3 years, and started to have some issues about two weeks ago. I lost power, fridge temp was too low, everything was overproofing, apartment was too warm - basically everything that could go wrong went wrong. I'm trying to get my mojo back, and I just can't do it. I've attached pictures of the bake I did this morning. It's like a little volcano.389g KA Sir Lancelot100g KA AP86g Castle Valley Mill Whole Wheat506g water12g salt81g starter1.5 hr autolyse, 4 hour counter ferment @74F (with stretch & folds and lamination), 13 hour fridge proof @38F, bake at 550 for 15 minutes (klosh on), 475 for 15 minutes (klosh on) and 475 for 15 minutes (klosh off).Using tartine shoelace shaping method, dough ball feels tight when it goes into the banneton.Please help - I'm losing my mind over here. /nai: Another angle. I'll cut it Another angle. I'll cut it open in an hour or two when it's cool and post crumb photos.

/nhuman: what happens if you leave a Poolish too long? My GoTo sourdough recipe (I think it was from Kinig Arthur Flour) uses a Poolish as an intermediate step and specifies that it can sit and stew for.... several days under cool conditions.so I usually assemble the Poolish on Day 1 and bake on about.... Day 3 or 4.Usually the Poolish is vibrant, bubbly and quite active when I come fo finish it off (with additiona flour, 4 sets of folds, shaping and proofing)Sometimes though I get distracted or simply cannot complete the process on schedule.Today for example I am trying to finish my Poolish after about... hmmm, it could be 6 days.and the Poolish seems pretty dead. it has slumped in its container.I've added the extra 240g of flour and salt and will do the folds.But the mass feels dead. so what is happening? what has happened? what can I do to salvage this batch?Peter /nai: Key question, key answer please What temperature was the poolish for 6 days?  Did it fluctuate during that time?(Leave it any longer it may become a sourdough starter. I'd say in the quiet stage.  But you just fed it .... So how is it behaving?  How does it smell?  Beery?Ok, so turned out to be a bunch of questions.  Any answers?

/nhuman: I've let my sourdough rise for 3 days and... I've let my sourdough rise for 3 days as an experiment and...it does have a crusty mould on it..heard you could let it stand for 3 daysShould I bake and eat it???only one way to find out now.. /nai: YIKES!!! I don’t think I YIKES!!! I don’t think I would eat it, if it’s gone moldy, Joe.  And I’m not sure where you heard that you could let it stand for three days, but I highly doubt if that’s correct.  It can be refrigerated for several days with no ill effects, but that’s only due to the colder temperatures slowing down the metabolic rate of the wee beasties living in your starter. if you do wind up eating the moldy starter, make sure that you (or your widow) post to let us know how it worked out.

/nhuman: Building a sourdough starter and adjusting ratios Hello bakers,I'm currently on Day 10 of establishing my first sourdough starter. Currently I am using a 1:1:1 ratio of starter:flour (50/50 wholewheat/plain):water and the starter is rising about 80-85% in about 3.5-4 hours consistently. I am doing this feed twice a day at 9am and 9pm. According to a few of the online methods I have seen I should start increasing the ratio at some point to start slowing down the rise so that I can feed at the peak on both occasions. I was thinking of increasing the ratio from 1:1:1 by 0.5 increments (1:1.5:1.5, 1:2:2. 1:2.5:2.5, etc) until I can achieve a rise of 2-3x that peaks in 12 hours. Does that sound like the right thing to do? Any advice appreciated! Also, the smell of the starter is still kind of funky and I can't say I can really notice any of the 'sweet' flavours that I've seen described online. For now it's still looks and smells a bit like baby sick... normal?Thanks againRick /nai: Hi Rick, define "baby sick" please.  Like curdled sour milk?  And what temps are your starter?

/nhuman: Changed home troubleshooting - where to start? Hi all,I live in the UK and have recently moved homes. Before, I was baking a 70% bread that I was very happy with, with a good over spring and crumb. Now I am finding my bread has a decent crumb, but the scores open little and oven spring is poor (photo attached). I feel like I am missing a trick in the new place and don't know how to start troubleshooting variables, so I was hoping I could ask for advice here! I'm trying to figure out what on earth may have caused this change. Some thoughts I have had:I'm using slightly different wholemeal flour now (I may try to acquire some of the old stuff I was using previously! I know it sounds silly as I only use 25g, but it feels like the previous stuff absorbed a lot more water and led to a stronger dough.)The kitchen in the new place seems much warmer. I've tried to adjust for this by using water at around 26-28C instead of 30-32C in the recipe. This seems to give me the correct Final Dough Temperature of 25-26C.New oven: I'm working on getting an oven thermometer but haven't yet had the time! It seems a much steamier oven but I anything that would be a good thing!Different water: my understanding is that if it's potable, it's fine for bread, so I've discounted this for now. Different baking vessel: I'm still using a dutch oven that I've had success with before, so I've also discounted this for now.Different scales: I don't know that the scales I have in the new place are as good as those I had before.Shaping and scoring: Maybe it's that I've picked up some bad habits?How can I start testing these ideas? Is there something else I've been missing? Any thoughts would be massively welcome!For reference, the recipe I've been using:Feed starter twice day before, at around 12 noon and 11pm: 10g old starter, 50g water at 30C, 50g rye flourLeaven: mix 20g starter, 100g water at 32C, 100g wheat flour. Leave for 8-12 hoursAutolyse 400g white, 25g wholemeal, 275g water at 30C for 45 mins. Add 150g leaven, 10g salt, mix for about 10-15min by hand until it windowpanes (I mix using Rubaud method)Bulk ferment for 3-4h, stretch and fold 4-5 times 30 minutes apart for the first 2-2.5h. Pre-shape once (or twice if I've done the first one badly!) and bench rest for 20 minutes, then shape.1h on kitchen unit in a banneton, retard overnight in the fridge.Bake next day in a dutch oven at 250C for 15 mins, 230C for 25 minutes. Lid off after 25 minutes. /nai: When you say “moved homes”, When you say “moved homes”, do you mean you found a new place three blocks west, or did you move to a new city?  Different municipalities source their water from different places, and treat it with different chemicals, so the water may be the culprit.  Just because it’s drinkable doesn’t mean that it has the same mineral content, or chlorine level. The new oven could also be an issue, as it may not be calibrated the same as your old one.  Oven temperatures can vary wildly, and should be checked and calibrated with a reliable oven thermometer. Your issue could be any number of things, but since the change happened after the move, I think your best bet would be to focus on things that involve the new environment.

/nhuman: Blisters on Crust I've never seen this many blisters on my loaf.Is this normal?What is this a sign of? /nai: Extra water in or on the Extra water in or on the dough, or maybe too much steam.(Update:)  Here's Teresa Greenway on how to intentionally get blisters by brushing on water: https://youtube.com/watch?v=KeEcgmGGbBs

/nhuman: Giant and Uneven Holes My loaf is at 73% hydration and a 6 hour bulk ferment at around 70F. I did one stretch and fold, one lamination, and 4 coil folds. I did something a little different this time where I added my starter and my salt at the same time and then slap and folded. I usually add the salt 30 minutes after I add in the levain but I decided to add it at the same time and ended up with this crumb.What is the cause of these giant holes? /nai: "Fool's Crumb" Google , or use the TFL search box, for that.In a word:  Underfermentation.Tom

/nhuman: Over or underproofed? Hi all, hoping someone with more experience could shed some light on my baking results. I started making Tartine-style country sourdough loaves a few months ago. I was getting pretty consistent results for months (like pics 1&2, sorry don’t know how to rotate pics) up until this weekend. Didn’t change anything (flour, water, times, equipment) but last loaf was dense and didn’t get as much spring in the oven. Also I noticed that my starter was smelling a little different lately (less vinegary, more fruity) though it’s been significantly warmer this past week.1 2BAFFE2B-11AF-4063-B5C2-1B5A8E305452.jpeg 2 5CCBB683-5FA7-4CC9-BB39-9CAFC9BB202F.jpeg Think the first loaf this weekend was overproofed (pics 3&4) so adjusted times for the next loaf (pics 5&6) but can’t tell if this one is under or overproofed? Eek, what went wrong this weekend? Thanks!3 6CF2F808-2EB6-4465-9380-41F17F1D25FB.jpeg 4 438617A4-6D06-46F2-A16C-1974395DFDB4.jpeg 5 01B9417A-425A-4B68-9942-07553CE67327.jpeg 6 FB1C6204-1B50-4EED-94A6-7B3E6D811481.jpeg /nai: They seem slightly They seem slightly underproofed (dense crumb with big holes is usually an indicator).I can imagine it's your starter. Nothing really wrong with it, but it might be that due to higher temperatures the microorganism ratios have changed and now are maybe producing more flavor and less gas, so it takes longer to proof. It's just a theory, but I'm having the same issue (underproofing despite same recipe and process, starter seems a little slower).Different bacteria have different optimal temperatures. I believe AAB thrive most at 30-32°C and LAB more around 23-27°C. I think wild yeast is around room temp (20-23°C). So the starter might have shifted towards more aromatic and less gassy microbes, but that should change in the end of summer.For now, longer fermentation periods are probably the best. Maybe increase bulk ferment by 20-30% and see where that leads you.

/nhuman: Diagnosis Help: Deflated, Yet Open Crumb? Today, I baked my first loaf that was truly a “flop.” I’m still learning how to identify different results and the factors that led to them.  DBFC8002-8316-43B4-AD58-536E5A56BA98.jpeg AA82629F-10A1-4021-84C1-8A9124F8B167.jpeg 93130450-3ACA-446B-9CD2-18BC08E73DDF.jpeg Here is my recipe:400g High Extraction White Flour100g White Bread Flour 320g Water150g Liquid Sourdough Starter 10g Salt Here is my method, with significant changes in bold: Levain Build: (20g starter, 75g flour, 110g water)Initial Dough Mix: 7 hours, 40 mins later. (I usually add my levain after waiting 6 hours.) Salt is added after 30 min rest. Bulk Ferementation: 3 hours 37 mins total, with three folds at 30 min intervals. Ambient temperature has increased with weather, temps around 78 F/ 26 C inside. Preshape, Bench Rest, ShapeWhile shaping, the dough felt extremely pillowy and soft. I did not excessively press the air out, because I was curious to see what would happen. (lol)Proofing: 12 hours in the fridge Bake: 25 minutes covered, 25 minutes uncovered. Used Dutch Oven for the first time, bottom was completely stuck, prying the loaf out resulted in it deflating even more.  The texture of the bread is soft, open, and it feels very light in the hands. The crust is thin and much too fragile. I usually have a significantly browner crust as well. This one’s color refused to darken. Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Could this be a result of over-fermentation, overproofing with higher temperatures, or something else? Thanks! /nai: Tell us about the bake. What Tell us about the bake. What kind of oven. What temp and how long did you preheat the Dutch oven for?

/nhuman: FWSY overnight country blonde : shaping or proofing problem ? Hi,The loaf seems a bit flat compared to previous ones :1. Does it seem to come from shaping or proofing problem here ?Bulk rise lasted 7 hours (it's about 79°F-26°C and I used 14% levain instead of 12%), during which dough nearly tripled, or perheaps x2,5. It had 4 folds during the first hour. I let it proof only 45mn (It always seems to pass the finger dent test as soon as bulk rise is finished... So I don't dare proofing too much..)2. According to crumb, is proofing too short here ?Thanks for your feedback ! /nai: The crumb looks alright to me The crumb looks alright to me. but 7 hours at 79F seems like a long proof.What is the hydration?  You may want to look for only 2x rise, leave more expansion in the oven. over proofed dough will not expand well in the oven.maybe lower hydration too, but I dont know what your hydration is.  just assuming it's quite high based on the heavily floured crust.

/nhuman: blue starter both my ww and rye starters grew a thick blue cover.  I tossed them.what would cause that?  I'm pretty careful with cleanliness. /nai: How long did you have them How long did you have them out? what temperature?  most starters, especially younger starters will grow mold if you leave it out long enough.  Usually more than a couple days.  if it just a bit on top, i just scrape it off and use a little of the starter at the bottom for the next feed.  a more mature starter will have higher acidity and will be less prone to mold. if you're not baking frequently, keep your starter in the fridge and feed once a week.  feed. refrigerate. take it out to thaw and mature before you feed and refrigerate again.

/nhuman: Tartine Country Loaf - flat outcome, what is wrong? Hi guys,Could you please help me understand what I do wrong so that my bread did not open at all and got very flat?I'm basing on the recipe from this link https://www.theperfectloaf.com/tartine-sourdough-country-loaf-bread-recipe/I did it twice and in both cases the outcome was not quite as I expected. The taste was good but the loaf completely flat without any spring.EDIT (fixed album link) https://imgur.com/a/QqVCfJWAny help appreciated! /nai: Do you have a crumb shot? It Do you have a crumb shot? It's very hard to judge without seeing how the bread looks inside. A completely flat loaf that still tastes good and has a fluffy crumb is usually overproofed — e.g. higher temperature or more active starter than assumed by the recipe. If it's dense and gummy, it's underproofed (e.g. starter isn't active enough).

/nhuman: Pre-refreshment of lievito madre / pasta madre after keeping it a fridge at 4C for a week Has anyone had success in using a combination of RT/fridge method in order to give a 'night rest' for the lievito madre before panettone refreshment?I am working on preparing my lievito madre / pasta madre to be ready for panettone baking. So far I haven't really managed to bring it to the level I want, so I am reviewing my preparation method. Too many resources - confusing, plus, having 30C as the RT and not owning a chiller to achieve the 16C-night-rest have been a challenge.From what I understand, in order to really get lievito madre ready for panettone, prior to completing the 3 refreshments every 4 hours, one needs to start refreshing it using a series of daily refreshment and night rest. So I do not have a wine fridge to keep the dough at 16C at night, so I have two options: to get a mini fridge which can chill to achieve similar temp, or to opt for a combination of RT and fridge.  The latter idea came from the blog written but Bakonomics guy (https://buonapizza.forumfree.it/?t=75691974), and if the Google Translate is accurate, he said the following:making a night rest of the yeast of 16h is essential to allow the yeast to purify itself from harmful, non-specific microorganisms, due to the high acidity that is formed. In addition, the acidity spontaneously selects the strongest elements. The rest must be done at 16-18 ° C (both for bound yeast and in water, as long as the latter is held harder). If unable to keep the yeast at 16 °, help yourself with the fridge: up to 20-21 ° leave at RT, at 26 ° leave at RT for 8h and finish in the fridge, at 32 ° 4h at RT and rest in the fridge, at 38 ° 2h at RT and the rest in the fridge; The RT here in Thailand is 30C, so I should leave it around 5-6 hours at RT, then into the fridge. This morning it seemed to have grown but not x3, this afternoon I will try to leave it longer outside to see how it goes.i am also a bit confused about the amount of sugar chefs have been using. There seem to be 2 opinions; 2g/liter and 0.5g/liter. I am assuming that the latter is fructose, not sucrose/sugar. And also, when you do such pre-refreshment straight out of the fridge, what the best ratio to mix LM, flour and water. For the first one I opted for 1:2:0.7. The next one - 1:1:0.44 - 0.46.Anyway, a bit complicated topic, if anyone can share some insights, I would be grateful! Thanks! /nai: Same situation Hello, sorry but I'm a year late. Currently in the same situation as you! Living in Singapore with 30C with no chiller. Have you manage to find a work around maintaining it at 16-18c?

/nhuman: Window of opportunity around very active starter Hi all - pretty newbie SD learner here.Have messed around for a few weeks now, and managed to keep a starter going.In the UK, and last week was pretty warm, and my starter overflowed it's jar. So I put it in the fridge and pulled it out yesterday. It was grey with a layer of hooch, but I took 100g and fed it 1:1:1. A few hours later it had doubled in size and looked very active. Today it's fallen back down. My Q is at what stage is it best to use it to bake ? As it's at it's maximum (i.e. yesterday ?). Or will it be OK as is today ? Or should I feed it again and use it when it's visibly active ? Using regular wholemeal flour. /nai: Best used at it’s maximum. Best used at it’s maximum. Common consensus is an over ripe starter will contain lots of acids, but the yeast will be weakened.

/nhuman: Crumb troubleshooting Hello bakersThis is my first post on the forum, so I would like to acknowledge this wonderful community for sharing its knowledge and experience with everybody - it has been instrumental in my bread baking journey so thank you all!I have been baking whole wheat sourdough breads for a couple years, but recently I have switched to white wheat bread to learn something new.I am trying to master Chad Robertson’s basic country bread, but I am struggling to maintain consistency in the crumb between each bake.  I often get a mixture of dense areas with larger air pockets, for example:Above bread was baked according to the recipe in the Tartine Bread with couple exceptions:  * Starter: 100 g (100% hydration, 85% bread flour, 15% whole rye)  * Flour: 450 g strong flour (le 5 Stagioni gold), 50 g whole wheat flourDough temperature during fermentation: 79-81F.3 ½ hr bulk proof with 6 s&f, 1 hr counter final proof, overnight retard in a cold fridge (1C / 34F), bake directly from fridge. Is the above crumb a result of under/over-proofing or very strong flour (14% min. protein)?Should I let the final proof go for 2-3 hours before placing the dough in 1C / 34F fridge for overnight retard? /nai: Under proofed During the bulk fermentation. Try letting the bulk go until you see it domed on the edge of the bowl with some bobbles on top and a jiggle to it. Give it another hour or more. 3 and 1/2 hours is a minimal time.

/nhuman: Starter smells like rotten eggs Hi,This is my first post here.I created a starter a couple of months ago and have made some lovely loaves from it. Unfortunately a few days ago it started smelling like rotten eggs after it had doubled in size, stirring it an popping the bubbles produces a very pungent rotten egg smell.After doing some research it looks like there is bacteria in the starter causing the smell, I went about trying to rebalance the yeast by creating a new 1:10:10 starter every 12 hours. After doing this for 3 days though the starter would double in size but the egg smell is still just as bad. I'm at the point where I think I might need to create a new starter from scratch as I don't appear to be able to rectify this one.My last idea is to leave the starter a long time with no food to go very acidic in the hopes this will kill the bacteria.Does anyone know how I might go about fixing this problem?Here is some info about my starter and process:I use 50/50 white wheat and whole wheat, both organicI use glass jars, a new one each time I feed, washedI use tap water left out with the lid off for a few hours to let any chlorine evaporateI've changed the container I put the water in just in case it was contaminatedI have not changed the flour I am usingThe temp is about 20-21c, probably a bit lower overnight Thanks /nai: Sulfur-eating bacteria Hi JamD, welcome to TFL. I haven't heard of this problem with sourdough starters, but in once piece of kombucha-making literature (this one), a rotten egg smell is attributed to sulfur-oxidizing bacteria, as you say. The book in question suggests this is caused by using tap water with such bacteria present, and recommends boiling the water for >5 minutes, before it is cooled and used to brew. With that in mind, you could try feeding your contaminated starter regularly, using boiled and cooled water, to see if the smell goes away. But I think there is a good chance that the contaminating microorganisms are there to stay. My work in a science lab, where contamination and other weird stuff happens regularly, has taught me that it is usually less work to just start again from the beginning. You'll know better what to do from prior experience, and by using boiled (or filtered) water you'll minimize the chance of a second contamination.Other users might have other opinions but I am happy to opine: when in doubt, throw it out!

/nhuman: My first loaf! 4D017240-060C-4D92-8A11-73E717189549.jpeg 8B6E1DA3-B803-4731-9916-1CFF1D26A388.jpeg Not too shabby, for my first loaf.  I didn’t get much rise out of it, although I did seem to get a little bit of oven spring.  There are a number of things that I’ll do differently next time.  I’ll post a crumb shot later this evening. /nai: Beautiful That's a good looking loaf.  show us the crumb.  what was the process/oven setup?

/nhuman: keeping sourdough fresh im guessing we all have the same problem, loaves generally lasting 1 day before the crumb starts to go harder and 2 days before its pretty much stale?  unless you have a family that gets through a loaf a day maybe?and yes i get that its because its more natural, no preservatives etc.  ive looked online and read that you should cover the loaf in a teatowel rather than plastic, but whatever i do i cant make it last any longer.  i end up slicing and freezing most of a loaf.  that has the knock on effect of not needing any new bakes for a while, so my starter maybe deteriorates through lack of use.and yes, i know the answer is to eat more bread :D  does anyone have any good tips/advice on making your loaves stay fresher for longer?thanks /nai: What I do I typically make 2 loaves on either Saturday or Sunday.  One loaf I give away, the other one is eaten by me and the family for toast and sandwiches.  I typically finish my bake around 4/5p, and the loaves hit the cooling rack until the following morning.  The loaf that we are going to eat goes on the cutting board, and after the first slice(s) come off, I just stand it on end on the board.  I do this through the next day.  At night on that day, it goes into plastic.  This has the effect of capturing the remaining moisture in the loaf that would normally evaporate and continue to harden the crust.  Doing this keeps the loaf sliceable for the next 3 days that it takes us to finish it (on average), and the crust comes back to a decent, crispy state in the toaster.  It's not perfect, but it works for us.  Anytime we can't eat the whole loaf before it gets too tough, I make croutons or bread crumbs out of it.Using this method, I get 5-6 days out of a loaf, and, while it changes some from the first slice (of course), I love it all the way through.YMMV.Rich

/nhuman: Feeding with bread flour vs all-purpose flour? Does it matter whether the starter is maintained with bread flour vs all-purpose flour? I started a starter about 2 months ago from a book that says to feed it with bread flour, but my local grocery store has had a shortage of bread flour, and I'm wondering if I can just switch the starter to all-purpose flour. Any advice appreciated! /nai: I'm no purist... But, in my 20 yrs experience, feed the mother with whatever is handy. Yeast are ravenous little savages that will eat damned near anything you serve them.When you start your build for leavening amounts, use whichever flour you're baking with.g

/nhuman: For the love of God, WHY? So I've been baking 2 or 3 sourdough loaves a week for the past few months. In general they're getting better and better and I feel like I'm understanding the importance of gluten development more and more.So then WHY does my dough suddenly seem to just refuse to gain any strength?? I use stretch and fold which is usually fine but then every now and then I try to make a loaf and the kneading process only seems to weaken the dough, making it into gloopy mess that holds no shape whatsoever and has to be binned.I use 70-75 % hydration but fact that dough refuses to build any strength at all makes me think this is not the problem. Could it be the flour? I use bread flour from a local bakery, but even so, I've seen loaves made with weak AP flour with more strength than these gooey puddles.Would really appreciate any suggestions from all of you, I can't seem to find anyone else who has this sort of problem. /nai: It sounds like you might be It sounds like you might be overworking the dough. So you build and build and build the gluten network and it becomes tighter, but at some point it rips and pools out. Are you kneading by hand or mixer?

/nhuman: FSWY overnight brown repeated disasters Hi all,I have been reading this site for weeks and have really appreciated everyone’s wisdom. I’m sorry to ask about a topic that appears to have been done to death but I am at my wits end with this recipe. I have made it eight times and have gotten it to work exactly once. Today’s loaf is going straight into the compost. I am new to sourdough but not bread. My starter is active and reliably doubles or more in 7-8h at 23C when fed 1:1:1. The Levain build for this bread is usually ready in 6h especially in my summer kitchen at 23-25C. My problem is the bulk fermentation. My first 5 loaves I assume were all overproofed as I followed Forkish’s timing. The dough was always very sticky and difficult to work with. After reading comments on this site I made the sixth with a four hour BF at 25C and then overnight in the fridge. The loaf had the classic signs of not a long enough fermentation. The seventh I let BF for 9h at 25C and woke up in the middle of the night to shape. It felt overfermented but after a 6h proof in the fridge it rose beautifully and the crumb was perfect. The only reason for the schedule was because I was making it for someone else. This last dough got 5h BF based on the tables that someone else had posted on this site and that it looked like BF was done with bubbles visible and it was jiggly. Dough was soft and sticky again. Proofed 14h in fridge but what I got was a flat loaf with no rise and dense inedible crumb. I have no idea what to do next. I have made the Vermont sourdough recipe with great results (increased hydration to 80% with no handling issues) but this recipe even when poorly done tastes so much better. Where am I going wrong? I have read and watched dozens of videos and posts about how to know BF in complete but I clearly cannot figure it out. thanks for reading, sorry it’s so long. I’m in tears and I have wasted yet another weekend on this /nai: Flour? Water? It might be your flour or water.Let us know what city/country you are in and the exact brands and types of flour you are using.Someone might be aware of tips or tricks needed for your specific ingredients or water.--What is your baking arrangement?  Are you using a dutch oven, and preheating it?

/nhuman: Quick question regarding storing starter in refrigerator? Regarding storing my starter in the refrigerator, should I:1. Feed, let rise then refrigerate? 2. Feed, immediately refrigerate?3. Feed, let sit at room temp for an hour or so, then refrigerate? /nai: For a weekly refreshment, I For a weekly refreshment, I would feed 1:2, store at your preferred fermentation temp until peaked, then feed 1:1, ferment for 1-2 hours, then refrigerate.Lance

/nhuman: Sourdough Focaccia opinions and einkorn disaster!! Had my second go at sourdough focaccia, and I have to say I’m satisfied with it! What do you guys think? Would love to hear your expert opinions ❤️! Oh and I tried making a all purpose and einkorn flour sourdough, and I think I added too much water :( , the dough was soo slack and weak, so after mixing in all the ingredients, I put it in the fridge for an overnight retard. Will do the folds tomorrow, I hope it became a easier to handle tomorrow! Any tips on that? 0C8A6E05-0D77-47D0-923E-C954C9DE270F.jpeg EA1D4849-C53F-42B6-9DE4-0067E342B4CB.jpeg /nai: Looks great!  I agree with Looks great!  I agree with the cold retard...that might be your only hope for the super slack dough.  But, it shouldn't be too much of a problem for a pan bread like this.  Good luck!

/nhuman: Another Stab at S.F. Sourdough I've decided to take another stab at S.F. sourdough, this time using a stiff starter and following the second of two recipes posted several years ago by Doc Dough:https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17730/divine-inspirationfor-me-it-way-larraburu-brother039s-sf-sd-what-was-it-you#comment-176197My first task was to make a stiff sponge using some liquid starter I had stored in the refrigerator. The recipe calls for:100 parts (first clear) flour (Hi-gluten)46-52 parts waterso about 52% hydration.The next step is:Make up and hold 7-8 hrs. at 80°FMy improvised proofing box is thermostatically controlled, but there is no control over humidity. I placed my 52% hydration sponge in the proofer. The sponge was in a small howl covered with a kitchen towel. I came back 8 hours later and the sponge had dried out to a significant degree. There was a thick dry crust on the outside.How can I prevent this crusting over? Are there humidity-controlled proofing boxes for the home baker or do I need to do something else?In the past I've made sourdough using a liquid starter and the results were just OK, but the bread was never near sour enough. It was just medium sour. I'm trying again using a stiff starter and following more closely the recipe posted by Doc Dough.In past experiments I've achieved a wonderfully sour replica of S.F. sourdough in flavor. In order to do this I've had to way overproof the dough. The dough turned to goo due to proteolysis of the gluten and the loaf was unacceptable. I baked the gooey, overproofed dough anyway and the flavor was definitely there.Thank you. /nai: Brod & Taylor Proofer One amazon.com user reports the following about the $195 Brod & Taylor proofing box:The humidity comes from water in a tray that you set below the rising dough. You could leave the water tray empty. You can set a temperature, but no, you cannot set a percent humidity.So if all it takes is a water tray inside the chamber, no point in spending $195. My improvised proofing box consists of an empty toaster over with an incandescent light bulb inside. The light bulb is plugged into a thermostatically-controlled switch which maintains a fairly constant temperature of 30° C (86° F). Don't laugh — it works.

/nhuman: please troubleshoot: underproofed? bad shaping? New sourdough baker here. I've been making decent loaves with some rise but now 4th loaf ended up with a frisbee. Could I please get some helpful suggestions on where to go next?Previous best loaf:today's frisbee:I got starter from a friend and keep in fridge, take out about 3 days before bake and feed between 1:5:5 or 1:10:10 and it doubles every 12 hours. I make levain overnight at about 75-80F, doubles in 12 hours. Next morning temp was steady 75 F all day. Autolyse water and flour 1 hour. Next add salt and levain, I tried Rubaud mixing about 10 min (previous loaves just hand mix until incorporated) then 4 sets of S&F every 30 min, and total bulk ferment 5 hours. Then pre-shape, rest 20 min, shape. I have a hard time shaping, the dough slides out always after shaping and looks wet/sloppy. It seems like other pictures on TFL I see the dough is tight and has a nicer skin, round ball look after shaping.After 5 hrs bulk ferment. bubbles on top, risen about 20%?Dough during shaping:The sloppiness makes it is also difficult to flip into bowl with floured towel so seam side is up for retarding. Retard in fridge overnight, covered about 18-20 hours around 36-38F, next morning score, bake directly from fridge in preheated 1 hr dutch oven 450 F, 30 min lid on, 20 min lid off. Internal temp after baking 210F. Levain (27%)100% hydration50 g white bread flour50 g whole heat flour100g water10g starterDough675 g white bread flour25 g whole wheat bread flour460 g water16g salt 2%Total800 g Flour (9.3% wheat)560 g Water 70% hydrationQuestions:Is it better to make levain same day in the morning 1:1:1 or 1:2:2, let it double in around 3-4 hours and then make the dough?Should I just drop the hydration from 70% to something like 65% untill I get better at shaping?How should I adjust my bulk ferment time? Should I be fermenting much longer? My previous good loaves were all int the 3-5 hour range.Thank you! /nai: If the dough is sloppy when If the dough is sloppy when using white (bread) and whole wheat flours, with 70% hydration, the bread is way overproofed.  And way undercooked.  Try lower hydration, cut the bulk ferment time in half.  It's not clear from your description how much time you are using in bulk vs final proof.  Any of the times you listed are far too long.

/nhuman: newbie needing to perfect sourdough himade a few loaves a few years ago with limited success and am having another go.  ive created a rye starter and am using the 'bake with jack' scrapings method, where theres no discard.starter doubles overnight now and thats when i mix.  first loaf looked like this which i was happy with, but maybe a bit of a gummy texture, a bit like a crumpet if that makes sense.... the recipe i use is 'bake with jack' beginners sourdoughhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmb0wWKITBQspurred on by this, a few days later i had another go.  ok, i got my slash wrong :-/but the crumb wasnt as good as the previous one, gummy again with big holes.  i asked around and someone mentioned i should have knocked it back.  however, ive never dont this and the recipe doesnt call for it.  do you think i should have done this?could you give me some advice as to how i can improve my loaves please?many thanks /nai: Do you let it completely cool Do you let it completely cool before you cut it?When it comes out the oven the inside is still cooking and if you cut it before this is finished you disturb this process with as a result gummy bread.

/nhuman: Dense and Gummy Crumb So this is my loaf at a 65% hydration. My levain is:20g starter60g whole wheat60g waterand I let that sit for 10 hoursMy dough recipe is:500g bread flour325g water125g starter11g saltI autolysed for two hours then added in my starter and incorporated it. I then let it rest for 30 minutes. Then I added in the salt and vigorously slapped and folded it for a good 5 minutes. I let that ferment in a diy "proof box" with a temperature of 90F for 30 minutes and performed a total of 4 stretch and folds every 30 minutes. I then laminated the dough and let it rest for another 30 minutes. I then did 2 coil folds every 30 minutes. I then let it sit for 1.5 hours. Then I preshaped it and let it sit for 30 minutes and then final shaped it and let it ferment in the fridge for about 12 hours. The total bulk fermentation was 6 hours. I preheated my dutch oven at 475F for an hour and steamed it for 30 minutes. I then removed the lid and lowered the temperature to 450F and let it get some colour. I'm not really satisfied with the oven spring or the texture of the crumb. It is quite wet and gummy. How would I fix this problem? /nai: A bit over proofed I guess after  6 our bulk fermentation on 90° with this amount of preferment is to long. When it goes in the oven there is no more food for the yeast.About gummy did you let it cool long enough before you cute in it?if you cute to soon you disturbed the inner cooking process of the bread.

/nhuman: After autolyse After a 1 hour autolyse, the recipe I’m using says to transfer to another bowl to start the bulk ferment.  I know this may sound like a silly question, but...  do I oil the bowl?  Will that harm anything for my bulk ferment? /nai: Adding oil will change your Adding oil will change your recipe and the outcome, depending on how much you add.   I do like to add a little bit to my ciabatta for flavor, texture, and ease of handling.if you're doing your stretch and folds in the bowl like me, the first fold or two, it might stick a little, but after the gluten is developed, should be no problem.if you have a proper bowl for bulk fermentation, you shouldn't need any oil. a bowl that you can scrap the dough out of cleanly.  glass, plastic, metal...

/nhuman: My Established Starter Smells Like loonie Baloonies (Acetone) My starter is 7 weeks old. I've had this issue for a few weeks. I use a 1:1:1 ratio although I have been adding more flour. I read that it is underfed. So it's 125g of water and starter I am adding 140g of flour. Today I added 150g.  Somewhere it said to use 2 tbs of starter and 14/c of flour and water. That seemed to work but today when I went to feed it the smell was back.The started is active. It rises and falls and I can see bubbles. It doesn't float. Until a few weeks ago it smelled yeasty and a little sweet. How do I fix this and get it closer to be ready to bake with? Thanks in advance! /nai: if feeding once a day I'd if feeding once a day I'd recommend 1 starter, 2 flour and 1.5 water. That smell is from lack of food. It may even need more food for once a day feeding so keep an eye on it. Enjoy!

/nhuman: best loaf yet Hi there. To all the newbies out there, I'm a newbie too and it's been about 3-4months since i started making bread. I just want to say if you've started a starter from scratch, many of your loaf woes maybe due to an immature starter.  Yes, you can make sourdough bread from a 2 week old starter, but if you find you're having problems or you think it's just not that ideal loaf you were hoping for, it could be due to an immature starter.  I find as the weeks pass, my baked goods made from my starter just seems to improve.  The gummy spots are gone, the oven spring is better etc etc..bulk fermentation and final proof times aren't as sensitive.  And just more predictable.  Even the starter is doubling faster and is more predictable.  So after taking a few weeks break from bread making, i turned out a loaf which i think was the least stressful and most successful so far.  Aside from a few things that aren't quite right, like my oven temperature, and shaping , degassing technique i can say it's a loaf that i would be proud to share with my friends.  So don't give up. Soldier on and keep feeding that starter. /nai: Nice! That is a loaf to be proud of!It is easy to get discouraged but every single loaf, even the not-so-great-ones, are a learning opportunity. But if we stick with it...we get beautiful loaves like that. Sweet.

/nhuman: Avice on my Starter Hi Everyone! This is my first post here. I'm totally new to sourdough and  I'm growing my first starter. I'd like some advise on it. My starter it's 12 days old and takes about 10 to 12 hours to double its size. It doesn't float at all. It's 100% organic whole wheat flour, and the feeding ratio is 1:1:1. I'm in Buenos Aires so by this time of the year temperature varies from 7º C to 15º C. During the day I put it near the stove to keep it warm. These are some pics from today: So this is how it looks like after 10 to 12 hoursAnd this is how it looks like texture-wise, it seems a bit grainy to me, but I don't know.Maybe I should change the feeding ratio? Or mix some more refined flour to it? /nai: That looks fine for whole That looks fine for whole wheat. WW can’t keep bubbles to float but certainly making gas no problem. You can switch to something like a 50/50 whole wheat/white flour mix and do a 2/5/5 ratio to go to a daily feeding. My whole rye looks very similar and it’s a very good culture.

/nhuman: Under active starter Hi, All! So I’ve been trying to be patient.  Today is Day 22.  My starter smells great (very yeasty), but I’m getting only a very little amount of rise from it, and what rise I’m getting takes a very long time before it starts to deflate (24-36 hours).  I had stepped it down to 25:25:25 in order to preserve flour, and moved it into a pint-sized mason jar in order to better be able to detect the rise (the starter still would wind up very goopy, and I was afraid that I was not getting any rise due to gas bubbles rising to the top and popping).  I finally scored some KA unbleached AP flour, and switched over to it in small increments over the course of 4 days (I had been using a bleached bread flour, which was all I was able to get at the time, the last of which I used on Day 16. I’ve also given up on periodically augmenting my feedings with Cream of Wheat (last time was Day 10).  The water I use is from my reverse osmosis deionizing filter, and my room temperature stays at a pretty steady 72F, although when the oven is on the spot where I keep my starter goes up to about 75F.  On Day 16, I switched my ratio to 30:25:25 (thinking that using slightly more starter would decrease the time it took to start to fall (haven’t noticed any significant change).  On Day 19, I decided to try decreasing the hydration level, by switching my ratio to 30:20:30, in the hopes that stiffening up the starter would allow for more gasses to become trapped, creating greater rise.  I have even begun mixing my feeds in such a way that it forms a noticeable gluten matrix, thinking that may also help to trap gases.  To date, I’ve never seen more than a 25-30% rise. Any thoughts on how to get past this slump? Should I return to a 1:1:1 ratio?  Should I try to bake a loaf and see where it goes?  Should I consider starting over?Thanks in advance for any suggestions and feedback.  I greatly appreciate all that I’ve learned here (and all that I know I still have to learn here)! /nai: My starter 6E7AB62C-F4B1-4635-8567-20B78CD57AE2.jpeg 9D56B13E-5FF4-4BA3-ABFD-B53C0D284A5B.jpeg

/nhuman: Timing With the Starter and Autolyse So I woke up a little late one morning and my starter was already at it's peak. I was debating on whether or not I should put the starter in the fridge to delay the process to make time for my autolyse or feed it a tiny bit of flour and water and let it rise a little bit. The night before, I started with20g starter60g water60g whole wheat flour When I woke up, I fed it an extra. I did not discard anything.20g water20g whole wheat flour Which is the best option? Put it int the fridge to slow down the yeast or feed it a little bit and let it eat for a a few hours? /nai: Would autolysing for a full Would autolysing for a full feeding period (5 hours) affect the finished product in any way?

/nhuman: Day 6 Starter Progress - Any advice? Hi all,I am working on my first ever sourdough starter and would like to provide my progress so far in case any one has any tips/advice.Equipment: Weck jar, spatula, thermometer, scales, organic whole weat, plain flourDay 1: Started with 100g of organic whole wheat + 125g water at 26cDay 2: No feeding, risen by about 50% in volume, smell was a bit wheaty but also a bit 'sour/off'Day 3: First time feed - 75g of starter  + 100g flour (50:50 whole wheat to plain) + 115g water at 26c, smells not very pleasanty, a bit sicklyDay 4: Quite frothy, same feeding routine as Day 3. Smells a bit like a baby has been sick on your shirt...Day 5: Normal feed + extra night time feed 12 hours later. Rising but not doubling. smell is less sickly or maybe I am getting used to it? possibly a bit sweet...Day 6: Same routine as day 5. One thing I noticed is that the starter rose about 50% about 2.5 hours after the morning feed but then started falling. Smell is a bit wheaty, still a bit sickly in the background..Anyway, the goal for me initially is to get a starter than can 2-3x in volume in 12 hours so I can settle into a twice per day feeding schedule. The problem I am having right now is that the starter is not quite doubling at all and I am wondering if the warm weather we are currently experiencing is effecting that too. Right now the ambient temperature in the kitchen is 28c during the day dropping to about 22c at nightAny help/advice/tips appreciated!ThanksRick /nai: All normal so far. Continue All normal so far. Continue present course of action - you are almost there.

/nhuman: Baking sourdough with dehydrated starter I wondered if I could bake sourdough bread starting with dehydrated sourdough starter so I did an experiment. I'm not talking here about "sourdough spice" which is added for flavor only to yeasted breads. I'm using SD starter that has been dehydrated just like you would for storage.I dehydrated some of my KAF SD starter using the drying mode of my oven. The temperature averaged 90F. It took about 12 hours to get good and dry. Then I ground it into fine powder. I had plenty of bread on hand so I waited a week to try it.I simply took 10g of the dry starter, 40g of WW flour, and 50g or warm water and let it sit for about 29 hours until I saw some activity and saw the pH dropping. Then I used the fermented flour to make my typical loaf by adding 90g of WW flour and 60g of bread flour, 10g olive oil, 10g honey, 4g salt and 1g yeast. The resulting dough doubled in 72 minutes and proofed in 80 minutes. It baked into a tasty sour loaf very similar to what I make (quicker) with my 100% hydration starter. Here is a table of my measurements during the process. IntervalTimepHvolumetemp  9:00  ml Fstart 4:27:0013:275.5310074 8:25:0017:255.4710074 12:25:0021:255.510078 24:00:009:005.3710078 26:57:0011:574.7410078 28:02:0013:024.4912578 28:48:0013:485.240080dough31:18:0016:184.71100 in pan 19:004.66 1300 bakedTo be clear, I didn't save any of the preferment to use as starter. I used it all making the loaf.From this it would seem that if you're willing to wait, you could make SD bread with no starter maintenance once you've got the dehydrated starter.I'm not convinced this is superior to NMNF or the flourless SD starters but it is another approach.Gary /nai: Interesting What, if any, discernable differences did you note? You only waited a week, I wonder what your results would have been like a month or even a year later.It would be helpful if you described the procedure you used for dehydrating your starter, as I've read several different techniques, most of which involve adding additional flour.Time is a relative thing here. You didn't spend much of "your" time on this, as I understand what you wrote. Most of the time was just giving the ingredients time to do their thing. How much, if any, time did you spend monitoring your creation?Nice work!

/nhuman: 2 months old sourdough starter smells like glue My sourdough starter has been pretty active for two months and I decided to give it a chance in the fridge. However, after a week or maybe 6 days later my starter came out with a very strong glue like smell that almost burns my nose. I am very upset about it and I wonder if it is toxic now.I have a backup starter frozen that is from my starter 1 months old but I do not really want to lose all that activation that I got in that 1 month. I would really appreciate any help. /nai: Acetone Sounds like acetone. Lots of references here on the site. Feed it and it'll be fine.

/nhuman: Oven Temperature Again!! I've found that most sourdough recipes call for preheating the dutch oven at 500F for an hour, steaming for 20 minutes and then browning at 450F for 20 minutes. I follow those baking temperatures but when I cut into it after it is fully cooled, my loaves tend to end up wet and gummy. The crumb is pretty even and it is not too dense. The oven spring isn't too bad as well. Should I try steaming at 450F and browning at 400F for longer? I also place my dutch oven on the second to lowest rack so maybe that affects the temperature as well. /nai: yes. Yes, that can work.  Especially for larger loaves, which need to  be baked longer, at a lower temp.  With a larger loaf, it takes longer for the heat to reach the center and bake off the moisture in the center.  And that longer time requires a lower temp so that the crust does not harden and darken too much.High temps cause the crust to harden sooner, and the hard crust prevents the moisture from coming out.There might be other factors in play, too.  To reduce how wet and gummy it is, sometimes the solution can be as simple as reducing the hydration of your formula.--Also, 500 F can sometimes be too hot for the steaming portion.  My steps go something like this:Pre-heat to 495 F.Bake covered at 475 F.Bake covered at 450.Bake uncovered at 425.Bake uncovered at 400.I usually make boules of 1200 grams, 90% whole wheat--The reason I  preheat 20 degrees higher is because a home oven loses 20 F when you open the door to  load the dough.

/nhuman: Bulk proof is turning my dough into sticky honeycomb ! I’m based in the UK. I have tried making sourdough bread twice now and seem to have come up against the same problem on both occasions. I’ll describe the second attempt…My starter was about 10 days old since inception. I took it out of the fridge in the morning, and fed it immediately. Within two and a half hours, it had doubled and was bubbling well, so I decided it was a good time to use it within the next 90 minutes.I mixed my flour and water (560g of 100% Allinsons strong white bread flour, 72% hydration, and my weighing and maths are good!) for a minute or two; the water had a tablespoon of sugar and a tablespoon of olive oil added before mixing. I then let it autolyse for an hour before folding in 100g of my starter (thick batter consistency) and 12g sea salt from a grinder.Over a further two hours, I carried out 4 stretch and folds. The gluten developed well and by this time, the dough was holding some shape reasonably well, strong and elastic, and coming away from the sides of the mason bowl. No other kneading was carried out.I then left it to prove at about 24/25 degrees C for a further 5 hours, covered in cling film.When I looked next, bubbles were appearing on the top, and the volume of dough had increased by a half, but the surface was not domed, and the dough had lost its structure and turned sticky again (almost looking like gloopy honeycomb, if that paints a picture). As soon as I tipped it out of the mason bowl onto a floured surface, of course it just collapses into a spongy mess with a very sticky skin when I touch it. Based on videos I've seen, I had been hoping for something that still resembled a ball of soft marzipan in terms of uniform texture and a "dry skin" whose gluten allows it to remain structured - much like the pizza dough that never fails me when I use dried yeast.This is almost exactly what happened first time – it is the batch rise that seems to scupper everything. The only option I have at this point is to add a load of flour to make it even partly workable, but there’s just no surface tension left in the dough at all (as I’m used to with a dry yeast), and there’s no way I can lame the dough, so whilst it bakes, the end product is on the dense side and poorly aerated, and not looking like those wonderful samples I keep seeing on endless websites and Youtube videos!Any thoughts on where I might be going wrong ? Should I prove less ? Prove cooler ? Try < 72% hydration ? I'm lost !Thank youGary /nai: First thought: lower hydration Different flours have different characteristics.  Add to that the tendency for sourdough fermentation to “loosen” a dough’s consistency.  If that doesn’t do the trick, you might then look at more dough development and/or shorter fermentation time. Paul

/nhuman: Bulk Fermentation When exactly does bulk fermentation start? Is it after the autolyse? Or after I add in the salt? /nai: When does bulk fermentation start Autolyse should only be with the flour and water — no yeast.After whatever autolyse time you use, then add salt and yeast (preferably keeping them apart when you start mixing.Bulk fermentation starts after the autolyzed flour and water has the yeast and salt added and is mixed.

/nhuman: Ideal Starter Temperature I'm new to bread making... Like I just started this week. I want to make some sourdough bread from scratch, and I've been reading up on it. Everywhere I've looked has said I should keep it at a higher temperature, around 80 or 90 degrees. I was wondering if anyone had any tips or ideas for maintaining that temperature without a proofing box. Or is ok to ferment the starter at room temperature? Edit - I made my first starter... and I think it's working well at room temperature! In only a few hours it has roughly doubled in size. I'm a little confused, however. Most placed I'm going off of say to wait for 4-7 days or until it starts bubbling. Another indicators is meant to be "a good sour odor". I've already experienced both of these in the first day. Is this normal, or should I be looking for something more severe? I'm very confused... /nai: Welcome to TFL! Starting off a new culture, it helps to have a warmer spot for it. I think above 75F is fine.  There are recommendations to put it on top of a fridge, or idk, next to your wifi router, where there's a bit of heat.  it will help your starter come along faster.  I dont know if you want it above 90F though. Once the starter is established, the temp is just a function along with time on when your culture is mature and how often you have to feed it. the warmer it is the faster it matures and sooner you have to feed it. Be patient. it takes some time to get a good culture going. you may see good activity, slow down, and eventually good activity again.Good Luck!-James

/nhuman: Gummy crumb? Hi everyone! New user here, and new to the sourdough baking club in general (started around April). I have a quick question regarding the loaf here as I’m not always sure how a “gummy” crumb is defined and wanted to check it this was considered gummy? If so, I may try and fix this by baking for a bit longer at a longer temperature next time. For reference, this is a 50/50 all purpose and red fife bread flour loaf at 83% hydration with about a 5.5 hour bulk fermentation before a 14 hour overnight retard in the fridge. Baked for 25 min at 450 w lid, then 10 min without at 450 and another 10 at 425. appreciate any guidance! Also if there are any tips on furthering strength for shaping high hydration / whole wheat, super appreciated! /nai: how soon? How soon did you cut into it?

/nhuman: I bought a 1/2" baking steel. What are some dos and don'ts when using steel? For example, with my stone I can preheat the oven to 550F and then turn it down to 450F when I put my breads (baguettes, batards, etc...stuff that doesnt fit in the dutch oven) on it. The bottoms always look sort of underdone but taste fine and sort of harden. Today when I preheated the baking steel at 500F, then turned it down to 450F when I put my baguettes on, the bottoms actually charred a bit through the cookie sheet. I couldnt believe it. The steel gets so much hotter and stays so much hotter. Should I not go so high anymore or is there anything I should be aware of when using steel vs stone? Thanks! /nai: Yes, you will either want to Yes, you will either want to turn down the temp, or shorten the preheat time when using steel.While either a stone or steel will get just as hot in an oven at a particular temperature, each material transfers heat at a different rate.  Steel conducts heat much more quickly than most stones, though a cordierite stone will conduct heat more quickly than a fibrament stone, and of course there are other stones that transfer heat at different rates.  Steel is very popular for pizza, since pizza really benefits from high heat transfer.  Some people like steel for baking bread because it is extremely hard to break steel, but drop a stone, or subject it to thermal shock, and some of them will break pretty easily.So either reduce the temp, or try adding something in between, like a parchment paper, to slow the heat transfer.

/nhuman: Stinky rye starter? Hello, I have a problem (maybe?) with a new rye starter I've... started; It smells proper vile. Like, I took a little sniff last night and it made me gag.So what fixes do people recommend? From what I can gather it isn't dead, but has been over run with the wrong kind of bacteria. But you ask 3 people and get 5 answers. I've heard lemon juice can help regulate the acidity? But also just powering through and feeding it more? Some people have said this is normal and will wear off if you stay the course. Beating the ever living love out of it is apparently another way to try and fix it too? I'm feeding it every 12 hours (ish) with about a 1/3 of a cup rye flour and equal amount water. 1:1. 100%?EDIT: I should add that it's only a 2 days old as of 24th June.My rye starter has 10 raisins in it to. My brother made a starter with raisins in it, which I pinched some of and is now my main starter and seems to be very healthy. Is raisin and rye starter a bad combination? So, I also have a buckwheat starter going (gf is gf) and that also had a bit of a whiff to it, but I fed it again last night and it seems to have calmed down a bit. Has anyone else had this problem? How did you overcome it?Ps, their names are Brødrick, Rebuckah and Ryean. Crucial information that could help. /nai: Hi, Jacob! If your starter is Hi, Jacob! If your starter is only just a couple days old, it sounds like you are on the right track, although you may wish to reconsider the 12 hour feeding schedule at this point.  You are correct in assuming that it has been over-run by undesirable bacteria, but that’s a feature, not a bug.  Those undesirable bacteria are consuming nutrients and creating by-products (waste).  Those by-products are changing the acidity of the starter.  As the acidity of the starter increases, it will bring other, less undesirable bacteria out of stasis. These new bacteria love an acidic environment, and continue to produce even more acidity in the starter.  Eventually, the starter becomes acidic enough that the original stinky bacteria die off, and desirable bacteria and wild yeasts start to become active.  So the original stinky bacteria are not spoiling your starter, they are paving the way for your yeasts to thrive. As for the 12 hour feeding schedule, in the beginning you want the bacteria to have time to do their thing, without being diluted too much by feedings, and this is accomplished by slightly starving the mix.  It’s not until you are at the point where yeasts are beginning to be active and strong that you want to encourage reproductive growth by providing a large constant food source.

/nhuman: First batard!! Thoughts ?? Hello guys! I’ve been baking sourdough bread for around 2 months, but I finally made my first batard today. What do you guys think?  BA1267F5-3256-412D-B28C-C41563D82BC7.jpeg 432CC193-0C8D-4930-B918-2247D900A36A.jpeg /nai: Great looking loaf!very nice Great looking loaf!very nice open crumb.  so what have you been making before this for 2 months?!

/nhuman: Please analyze this loaf... Hi All - New to the forum here and was hoping someone could point me in the right direction.  Here are two pictures from my bake today: Recipe:400 Type 85 (Central Milling)25 Rye44 Red Fife301 WaterAutolyse 1 hr Water and Flour10 g Salt25g water95 Levain Levain - Starter fed 8:00 AM 1:1:1 and reached almost 3 times height.Mix - 1:45Bulk Start - 78 dough temp, 2:00PM3 turns, bulk finish 7:00 PM (Slight bubbles, felt a little loose, ~25-30% rise)Shape at 7:00 (Came together nicely, not overly tacky)Overnight proofBake at 10:15am next day.  500 degree to start in a lodge cast iron dutch oven.  Immediately reduced to 420, baked 20 mins lid on, 20 mins off. The taste is very good, a little gummy in the middle.  Crust is outstanding.  Family couldn't wait til dinner and destroyed half at lunch.  While this was a first time recipe with this flour mix, I struggle with getting a nice domed loaf on a regular basis when using sourdough starters... Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated /nai: Looks great! Beautiful loaf! what's your concern?  Looking at the number, it's 72% hydration.  Oven spring is really good. nice open crumb.  How long did you rest it before cutting it open?  I would recommend minimum an hour. but better yet, 2 to 3 hours to let it completely cool.  Also, I usually bake these for 30-35 mins uncovered instead of the 20 you did.  dont be afraid to get more color on the crust. it also helps to take a bit more moisture out of the crumb.  just monitor the color as you extend the time to be safe.  it always looks lighter when i take it out of the oven than it does with the little oven lamp.

/nhuman: Not doubling Day 8 I know starters can take up to 14 days to double but I need advice as this is my first time establishing a starter.Temp in the kitchen would be on the cool side as it is Winter but it is winter in Brisbane Australia which is 22-24 degrees Celsius.I am up to day 8 and feed half whole wheat half plain flour both organic, I use filtered water.  I currently feed at a ratio of 1:3:3 every 24 hours at 630pm.  It has bubbles and rises but only the smallest amount.  The picture I am putting up is today Day 8 and it has fallen slightly not as much as you think because the residue is from when I mixed the flour last night.  The starting point/line is the top of the black tape.Worried I may be underfeeding but also don't want to over feed.Look forward to your suggestions. On a side note I was going to place in the oven with a light but the light in the oven does not work. /nai: You may have diluted the LABS and yeasts Skip feeding it for a day (to lower pH), then feed once a day, whole rye or whole wheat until stong again. When establishing a new started and it's past the smelly leuconostoc and friends bacteria, I feed 56g starter, 28g whole rye flour and 28g water until it gets yeasty and smells of bread or beer.  After that, I transition to maintenance feeding 1:1:1. I like 125% hydration so I feed 1:1:1.25.If you used whole wheat flour to start off with, then use that.  When you get to the maintenance stage, you can transition to white flour if you prefer, but not before.

/nhuman: I need some help diagnosing my sourdough Hey!  Long-time lurker, first-time poster here. I'd really appreciate some help diagnosing my sourdough–I'm not getting the results I'd like.  My guess is that I’m having problems with my starter, but I’m not sure. I’ve had the same results with the Tartine Country Sourdough, so I’m a bit lost on what exactly it is I’m doing incorrectly. And a similar issue with another recipe, also using a stretch and fold technique, although I do not have a link to it. I tried it again with @a_warming_trend’s recipe (link here), and this was the result:  I took some basic notes as I went, shown below.Ingredients425 g AP flour (around 12-13% protein)50 g whole wheat flour375 g water10 g salt10 g sugar50 g 100% starter 1. Autolyse at room temperature (67 F) for 5 hours. (I know this long autolyse wasn’t necessary, but I mixed it in the morning and continued when I got back later in the day.) Starter was pulled from the fridge and fed the previous night, so was likely on hour 17 or so since last feed. On the sides of the container were numerous small bubbles, although I have never had a starter with large porous bubbles visible on the sides on the container (maybe this is the issue?). Room temp overnight was likely 64-65 F. 2. Add in starter, salt, sugar.3. S&F every 30 minutes for 3 hours. Room temperature was approximately 67 F. Note: 5 minutes off schedule @SF no. 5.4. Rest at room temp for 3 hours, covered with plastic.5. Cold ferment 16 hours in the fridge, covered with plastic.6. Bench proof 10 minutes, covered.7. Shape and place in banneton. Proof for 1.5 hours at 68 F.8. Freeze banneton + dough for 15 minutes.9. Score and bake at 475 for 25 minutes with steam, 20 minutes without. I use a Dutch Oven for this. Thank you! /nai: Under Fermented I'm guessing with 10% starter at 67F six hours wasn't enough. Why did you move onto to shaping after six hours? Was it well risen? Doubled? Aerated and bubbly? If not, then it needed longer. Please also give details about your starter.

/nhuman: I Made a Stencil So I made a stencil for my loaf and I was wondering what the best flour was for dusting it? Rice flour? Bread Flour? AP Flour? Or it does it not matter which flour I use? /nai: Rice flour. Rice flour.

/nhuman: Tartine Advice Hi.  I'm new to The Fresh Loaf and relatively new to baking in general.  I've been essentially baking the master recipes from both Tartine and Tartine No 3 on a weekly basis for about a year.The Tartine master recipe is 90% white, 10% wheat and 75% hydration.  I've gotten this one down enough that I enjoy it.  It looks like fancy bread, it tastes great and most of the time, the crumb makes for great sloppy sandwiches due to the occasional big holes.The Tartine No 3 master recipe on the other hand has me really frustrated.  It is 50% High extraction wheat (Type 85), 25% wheat, 25% white wheat, 85% hydration.  I've probably made this bread over 25 times so far and I think my quality has peaked but is way below what it's supposed to look and taste like. The two biggest problems are,1  it's denser than its supposed to be (the holes are really small)2 even after waiting hours before cutting into it, the inside is always a little moist.  The bread knife always has wet bread stuck to it after the cuts through the center. Has anyone has any luck with this recipe?My current schedule after reading some blogs about tweaking autolysis and final rise is:1.  In the evening, I mix flours and water for overnight autolysis.  I also make the leaven separately.2. Morning, I mix leaven, dough and salt.  Bulk ferment at 80F, folding every 30 min for 3-4 hours3. Afternoon, I shape into a ball by spinning it with a dough knife a couple times.  Rest for 30.4.  Final shaping.5.  24hr final rise in the refrigerator.6. Put bread in a hot dutch oven.  Oven pre-heated to 500F, turned down to 450F when bread goes in.  20min lid on, 25min lid off.Any help would be SOOO appreciated.  Even if the help is you telling me to just give up and try lower hydration bread.  At this point, I'll listen to anyone!  :) /nai: looking for clues. Tartine #3 is one of my favorite books. So, you're on a good track.   At first glance, your final proof is 12 hours too long. It's most likely that one simple thing. But let's also explore other possibilities. Please clarify this, and please use full description of the flours instead of verbal shortcuts, which can be ambiguous: "50% High extraction wheat (Type 85), 25% wheat, 25% white wheat, 85% hydration.  "  Your 2nd flour and 3rd flour aren't described well enough to give me a firm understanding of what you're using.   So, please let me know the page # of the formula you are using, and then write the exact flour you used, not just what the book says.  For instance, most people don't know what "white whole-wheat flour" means in the formula on page 46.  Maybe you do.  But that is a tripping point for some people, because it is not widely known or understood, because many stores don't carry it. (Trader Joe, Kroger, and King Arthur make "white whole wheat.")  Are you buying Type 85, or did you kludge it by mixing 50/50 whole wheat flour and white refined (AP or Bread) flour?Are you using any fresh-milled/home-milled flour, or just store-bought, for the whole wheat or the white whole wheat?  Your 24 hour final proof is 12 hours too long.  Page 41 in Tartine #3 book says 3 to 5 hours at warm room temp, or overnight (12 hours) in refrigerator.  Fermentation does not stop in the fridge, it just slows. BUT... whole wheat and high extraction actually slows down less, it just keeps chugging along.  Also, acid keeps on breaking down the whole wheat.  Also, according to page 41 of Tartine Book #3, the temps and times of the bake are different than the original Tartine Bread book.  But those have to be adjustable anyway, due to oven differences, and normal variations of flour, etc.  I usually pre-heat and bake at 475, turn down to 450 after15 minutes, and then turn down temp again when I uncover the dutch oven.( I currently do 90% whole wheat loaves, home-milled flour, 88% hydration, about 1200 g of dough, in my trusty Lodge 3.2 combo cooker.)   I've been on TFL since Sep 2019.  so welcome!There are plenty of other whole wheat bakers here, including home-millers, who will give you excellent advice.  You will want to follow DanAyo, SheGar, ifs201, Mini Oven, danni3ll3,  barryvabeach, MTloaf, UpsideDan, dabrownman, Our Crumb, and deblacksmith, plus some others.

/nhuman: New starter with no activity on third and fourth day I decided to make a starter based on wheat flour in addition to my existing one which is wholly made with rye flour.The formula that I used is:Day 1: 50g rye flour to 75ml water.Day 2: 30g of starter to 60g all purpose flour and 60ml water.Day 3 and onward: Repeat as for day 2 until 5 or 6 days have elapsed..My experience was at the end of day 1 there was big activity, the rye flour mixture doubled in volume. Day 2 was even more active and I fed the starter twice because I thought that the expansion might exhaust it. I don't know if this was a wrong move, but on days 3 and 4 the starter shows no signs of activity whatsoever. not even any bubbles on the surface or the sides of the jar in which I'm keeping it. Do you think it's worth continuing with day 4 etc.? Should I modify the ratio of starter to flour to water? /nai: I think having whole grain I think having whole grain flour in there until you get a good reliable culture helps a lot.  It took me about 2 weeks to get a really solid starter. first week's activities were hit or miss day to day.  i go with a 2-5-5 feeding. 20 grams starter, 50 grams rye 50 grams water.   I  probably could have gone 10g/30g/30g to save on rye flour.  now that i have a reliable one i'm switching to a premixed 25% rye 75% bread flour feed at 2/5/5 daily.i read that the first few days of activity are more bacteria based.  which builds up acid after which bacteria activity goes down and yeast activity starts to pick up.  you'll know from the nice aroma of alcohol when it's ready.keep at it. you'll get there.

/nhuman: CO2 Disappearing act Vacuum sealed for 2 months at ~8C. What was once tightly bound and rock solid due to the intense gas pressure has now finally dissipated. I presume all or most of the CO2 got converted into carbonic acid. As shown below it is the dominant chemical species at low pH.This got me thinking... Carbon capture (fixation). Turned up this:Carbonic-Acid-Fix-Carbon.htmlOn a more trivial note the aroma of this dough was like a nice glass of Chardonnay, sur lie style. /nai: If left to warm up will it If left to warm up will it expand?

/nhuman: Tips on Improving This Bake Please? Hi All,My first post here :) I've started baking sourdough bread about 2 months ago now and am really enjoying it.  I have been finding the lower hydration bakes easier but not a big fan of the texture of the crumb.  I've been working with a higher hydration bake recently which is starting to come together.  I think I’ve had a few bad loaves due to under proofing but I’ve fixed this (i think) by starting to take records and making adjustments.I'm now at a point where I'm reasonably happy but I can't help but feel that there's opportunity for more oven spring.  I was wondering if I could get some tips from people.  My method and pictures are below.All temperatures are in Degrees Celsius.255g Bread Flour (13.1%)70g Unbleached Organic Spelt253g water7.5g salt65g levain (consisting of 90% Bread Flour and 10% Rye Flour)The levain was used at 8 hours old (25 deg) having almost tripled in size.  This is an 80% hydration loaf with about 80/20 bread flour to Spelt.Autolyse was 2 hoursInoculation | T0:00 | 2 min Rubaud & 4 min slap and foldSalt | T0:30  | 5 mins slap and fold | 24.1 degTurn & Fold | T1:00 | 24.2 degLamination | T1:30 | 24.5 degCoil Fold 1 | T2:00 | 25.8 degCoil Fold 2 | T2:30 | 25.3 degCoil Fold 3 | T3:00 | 24.6 degCoil Fold 4 | T3:45 | 25.2 degCoil Fold 5 | T4:30 | 24.7 degCoil Fold 6 | T5:30 | 24.1 degCoil Fold 7 | T6:30 | 23.6 degShape & Retard (in fridge)  T7:00After 18 hours retard I cooked it straight from the fridge in a Dutch Oven at 260 deg for 20 mins then at 220 deg for 25 mins.There were many turn and folds as I was planning on the BF lasting for 9 hours and I feel that my dough structure is not as strong as it could be.  I got worried that it may over-ferment and gave it a poke test (which I’m not sure I can gauge correctly yet). I was chicken and finished fermentation earlier than I had planned to at 7 hours after Inoculation.I suspect that my shaping could be better but I guess that will come in time.  I wonder that there’s not enough strength in the dough and I really want to be able to manage this by better process than by reducing the hydration as I prefer the texture of the high hydration dough.There's a strange bigger expansion in the middle which has happened a couple of times now. What might this be indicative of?I’ve not cut into it yet so no crumb pics I’m afraid.Any tips / feedback would be much appreciated. /nai: Couple of thoughts:Spelt Couple of thoughts:Spelt flour is less absorptive than other WW flours, and the hydration on your dough is pushing 80% I think, which is pretty high.  This will pose some challenges.  Additionally, spelt increases extensibility in dough, which means it wants to spread out more.  I think there are likely some good forum chats here that delve into baking with spelt.  I would decrease the amount of water in your recipe and try again.A shorter autolyse would probably be fine (30-60 minutes).  I think you will get most of the good benefits at about an hour.Try decreasing the number of S&F/coil folds, then let the dough just sit for a few hours at the end of your bulk ferment.  So long as you have the windowpane effect when you check at the beginning of your 4th or 5th S&F (some do less) you should be fine.  What method are you using to judge whether the dough has strength or not?  I think you may have overworked the dough and then didn't give it any time to gain volume at the end of the bulk ferment.  Signs bulk ferment is done will include the large bubbles, a concave edge of dough where it meets the bowl, and a light, jiggly consistency when you move the bowl.  You are shooting for 30-50% increase in dough volume from the beginning of the ferment.  A lot of people over-ferment their dough.You might shorten your cold retard.  It looks like the starter is maybe wearing out.  If my math is right, it looks like you have about 27 hours from start to finish, which might be too long for your starter.  This coupled with the long bulk might be asking too much of your starter.  Without a crumb shot, it is hard to see what is going on completely, but the side photo looks like the dough was a little tired, possibly over-fermented and proofed.I'm sure there are others here with more expert guidance...just thought I'd add a few comments that I hope will be helpful.  Happy Baking!

/nhuman: Tinned Sourdough Monster! Hi all! I hope you’re all staying safe in these times! I wanted to try something new, so I decided to bake my sourdough in a tin, and I got a weird rip. I want to know what caused it. My suspicion is my really bad scoring :(           I can never properly score Room temperature dough! Also, is the bottom of my loaf normal?  8ACFFCD5-AAF2-4FE3-A9D4-932156F8AEBE.jpeg   44665688-F476-45EB-8D20-786A073B3E9A.jpeg 96C8B419-C235-4CEF-A61D-32CBE8F7C919.jpeg /nai: The rip is just scoring. I The rip is just scoring. I find a straight cut at 90 degrees end to end works best in a bread pan. Seems to give a more even oven spring. The bottom is normal enough. Yeah, a little darker in the center but not bad. Could have been uneven heat distribution, or as the loaf expanded it pulled away from the bottom a little around the edges. I can see that happening if the dough was shaped/proofed outside the pan, then put in the pan and right into the oven. I'll proof in the pan so it fills up evenly. Enjoy!

/nhuman: What is the ideal ferment temperature I am wondering if you got a proof box of some kind what would be the to go for temperatuur. Currently I set my proofer on 28°C about 82.4°FI heard Sunne say he set his proofing box on 30°C so 86°F /nai: Ideal fermenting temp for what? What type of dough (for which bread) do you want to ferment?  They vary.

/nhuman: My inproved loaf, thanks to Benito, ciabatta and others Just wanted to come back and thank Benito for his encouragement, ciabatta for pointing me to foodgeek’s website ( excellent) also naturaleigh and Pham for further encouragement and explanations. I have been making sourdough for 10 years but despite thinking I understood the process pretty well, it’s amazing how much more there was to learn. The main things I have taken from this forum are the importance of giving bulk fermentation enough time. Also, I have invested in a banneton and I believe that really improved the overall structure and shape. This loaf was river cottage, I made a sponge, let it ferment about 7 hours, add in 250  flour ( to 250 g of flour and 300 ml water in the sponge) and about 80g of mashed potato ( I believe this gives a nice soft crumb). Knead 5 mins. Rest 10 mins. Add 10g salt. Knead another 5 mins. Rest 1 hour. Three stretch and folds at 1 hour interval. Knock back. Rise 3 hours. Overnight in fridge, bake at 260C 20 mins, 200C 40 mins, in a cloche. /nai: Nice improvement you’ve made, Nice improvement you’ve made, so glad things are working better now.  The mashed potato sounds like a good addition to make the crumb softer.  So glad you posted a follow up.Stay well and keep baking.Benny

/nhuman: Can I bake bread with a mixture of sourdough starter and commercial baker's yeast hello,          I'm a beginner in sourdough, with my first ever sourdough starter ready in these few days. I'm excited about the prospect of baking bread with the starter for the first time but am also worried that my bread may not rise properly (either due to the young age of my starter or due to my lack of experiences). So my question is can I add both sourdough starter and the commercial yeast to make my bread as an insurance? if so, what should be the right ratio between the starter, commercial yeast to, the flour and water? Do I still need to wait much longer for my bread to rise than if I only use sourdough starter?         And is it correct that the best time to do sourdough starter "float test" is not immediately after feeding, but a few hours after that? if so, how many hours is it? and Should I immediately incorporate the starter if the test result is good?         I'm making my bread with 15% protein whole wheat flour without kneading and am leaving the mixed dough in the refrigerator for between 20-24 hours to let the gluten to develop (I find the result to be pretty strong). And then for the second rise, I will take the dough out of the fridge and let it rise for half an hour or so on the counter, before baking. My question is: If I use both the starter and commercial yeast, do I have to lengthen the first and the second step?          Thank you for your great insight!Cheers!Liming /nai: Look Up David Snyder's San Joaquin Sourdough... recipe on this website.  That is an excellent starting point for your first loaf.  If your starter is robust you don't need to add any extra yeast at all.  David's recipe calls for a bulk fermentation in the refrigerator.  If you follow the steps he outlines you will have a nice loaf of bread even though you have swapped out the rye flour that he (and I) use for whole wheat.

/nhuman: Gummy Fools Crumb Hi,Just starting out and struggling with gummy texture and big bubbles at the top.Seeing mixed messages that it could be underproofed or overproofed.Used recipe below at half volumes for one loaf but didn't float test starter so it bit might've been a bit weakhttps://www.theperfectloaf.com/beginners-sourdough-bread/Living in colder climate so thinking maybe I need to bulk ferment for longer and fold/shape better? Thanks /nai: Crust appears brown enough to Crust appears brown enough to rule out over. And cool equals longer times for every stage in the process. The big holes can be cured with patting down the dough a tad before final shaping. Don't worry about the float test, it's not entirely accurate. If the starter smells good and is bubbly and rising regularly, it should be ok. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Sourdough maintainance with minimum starter I have recently started a new sourdough starter that is approximately 1.5 months old and rises in 6 hours and falls in 12 hours.I have been keeping my sourdough discard for baking other things but it still turns out to be a lot more that I can handle while feeding 20grams of starter 75 grams of flour and water each.I do not really want to put my sourdough in a fridge since the sourdough that I discarded all a year ago, which I kept in the fridge was not getting stronger.I now wonder if I can feed 5 grams of mother starter 25 grams of flour and water each. However, I see that even when I feed 10 grams of starter 40-40 grams flour and water it does not rise and fall as properly. So I am confused if I can do the 5 gram fed with 25-25 flour and water it with an electronic scale.I would appreciate any help. If needed my room temp is 21-24°C /nai: Im actually not to sure. I Im actually not to sure. I was told to add a 1/2tsp of sugar when feeding with equal amounts warm water and flour.

/nhuman: Starter Doubts Hello!!I have been baking for a month or two already and now I have some questions about by starter.I have been feeding my starter when it is at its peak (I heard that will make it stronger, is that right?). If I didn't want to make it stronger then, at what stage should I feed my starter? I guess my question is how should my starter look (at peak, while rising, while falling, when it's fully down...) feed it?So I decided to feed at peak to make it stronger, because well, it wasn't strong enough, so here is my next question: what is considered a strong starter? What difference does it make when baking? And is my starter  not strong? I feed my starter 1:1:1 and it was taking around 8/9/10 hours to peak at around 22°C. The only times the temperature was warmer (25°C) it was rising to its peak in 7h. In all cases the starter was peaking at around 2x the original size or sometimes 2.5x. My next question it's pointed towards the saving side of this: how can I avoid feeding as many times? I have heard of the fridge technique, and I have used it but the starter was very weak after coming out and it took me somewhat around 5 feedings to get it back to normal shape. Why is that? How should I treat my starter in the fridge? How often should I take it out and for how long should it be out(if it should at all). Also, should I feed my starter from the fridge?  Thank you all in advance! /nai: Starter questions Hey Victor!  I guess the first question would be how have your bakes turned out?  That will tell you more about the health of your starter, when it was best to use it, etc.  I think there can be a tendency to stress too much about starter maintenance and catching it at the 'perfect' time for feeds.  That's not to say starters should be neglected.  I just believe they are a lot more resilient than some people think.  Why do you say your starter wasn't strong enough?I would say fairly young starters should be used often rather than parked in the fridge for long periods of time.  If you are using it once per week for weekend bakes, take it out of the fridge on Wednesday or Thursday, feed it every day for 2 or 3 days, watch what it does and when, and time your last feed accordingly, to get as close to peak as possible for your dough build.  I've switched to doing a 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 feed approximately 12-16 hours before I need to use the starter--this slows the activity down a bit and makes the starter nice and happy.  I would start with 1:2:2 on a fairly new starter to make sure it can handle the extra flour.  This also cuts down on the number of feeds since a 1:1:1 starter will likely require twice a day feeds (if it is rising and falling in about 8-12 hours).  I also keep a smaller amount of 'mother' starter, so I only keep 50g of my main starter (which lives in the fridge when I'm not using it) because I got tired of either pitching so much discard or trying to find ways to use up the discard in other recipes.  I just think it is less wasteful this way.  You can build a larger starter with your feeds if you need more.  Some people keep even smaller 'mother' starters.  You take it directly from the fridge, discard (if applicable), add water and flour for the feed, stir until smooth, leave it out on the counter for a few hours until you get some rise, then you can pop it back in the fridge until you need to build for a bake.  If I'm baking a lot, I leave it out on the counter and feed every day (at the 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 ratio).  I usually try to feed my main starters that are in the fridge once per week, but have gone as long as 3 weeks in between feedings, with no real ill effects.If you want to speed up the rise of your starter, use warm water.  I normally use tap water for my starter feeds and builds but bottled spring water (no bubbles) for my bakes.  Water quality can be something to think about too for your starter feeds if your tap water isn't great.  Conversely, you can slow down starters by using cold water.  I usually put the jar on a thick, woven pot-holder so it isn't sitting directly on a cold counter, which helps keep it warm.  You can also park it in the cold oven with the light on if you want to speed up the rise.Hope you find something useful here!  Best of luck and Happy Baking!

/nhuman: newbie needs help please Hi.  I have 2 questions:1. I made the Ken Forkish Overnight Country Brown Sourdough and it turned out great, but now I would like to make it using only whole wheat, rye and spelt flours combined.  I don't want to use any white flour.  Can someone help me figure out how many grams of each to use (and how much water)? I'm really stuck as to how to adjust his recipe as written in the book. 2. Instead of building up the levain as his recipe calls for, can I just use my active starter that I keep happy and fed on my counter?Thanks so much. /nai: You need a whole new recipe. Welcome to the TFL bread club, where some of us are half-baked, but no one is real crummy.--"I'm really stuck as to how to adjust his recipe as written in the book. "That is a typical newbie mistake.One does not change the type of the majority flour in a recipe/formula from refined/white wheat to whole wheat, or a different grain such as spelt, and make mere "adjustments."Here is the answer:  You need to find a pre-existing and tested recipe that uses, that was _designed for_, the ingredients that you want to use.  The FWSY Overnight country brown was designed for the ingredients it calls for.Page 174 shows that that formula uses 70% white flour, and 30% whole wheat.  You want to use all whole grain, and also to swap out some wheat for spelt and rye, and use the same recipe "with adjustments"?   The best answer is:  your goal actually requires a completely different recipe.--Going from majority white flour to majority whole grain (or non-wheat) is a huge step for a beginner.  There are new things to learn with how whole grains, spelt, and rye behave.May I suggest you first learn whole wheat baking by doing the 75% whole wheat levain bread on page 144 of FWSY.After you get that under your belt, then you will be better prepared for 100% whole wheat, or using spelt and/or rye.--Unfortunately, Forkish doesn't go over 75% whole wheat in his book.  But there are other authors who do, and there are plenty of recipes/formulas on TFL for whole wheat, and whole wheat plus spelt.--Good luck, and bon appétit !

/nhuman: Almost no oven spring for rye bread Hi all,I am getting really frustrated with baking bread, as I get almost no oven spring for the last few weeks. I mostly use a rye starter (a bit over 100% hydration, otherwise it is just way too thick), and it doubles after feeding nicely, so I think it's pretty active. I had success before with making rye bread so I don't think it's my oven (I had some ok buns from wheat also, they rose a lot). My kitchen is around 21 degrees but maybe it was colder in the winter and spring, when I had better results? Most of the time the inside of the bread is pretty gummy and there are dense parts, it doesn't matter if it's 100% rye or part. I am using this recipe for a few bakes now: https://www.baking-sense.com/2019/08/01/sourdough-rye-bread/I have tried to make it two different ways, once with a no knead overnight proof, where I mixed everything and let it ferment for 8 hours. The dough rose a lot, I could barely form it, it didn't hold its shape and stack everywhere. It did rise a bit. I suspected overproofing, so I fed the starter again, mixed everything and tried following the recipe more, with kneading (which was a pain as it was way too sticky) and stretch and folds. I didn't wait so much because it looked like it was getting airy much faster than the recipe said, but when I tried shaping it, it was still way too sticky. I hold its shape a bit better, but while I preheated the oven is spread out and when I slashed, deflated like the overproofed one and had even smaller oven spring. Although this time around the whole proofind and shaping took only 4 hours, and right after shaping the finger poke test told me it is not overproofed. Couple of things to mention.Here in Denmark I can only buy whole grain rye, maybe it behaves differently than most recipes expect, but I feel like the dough is too wet after following instructions, shouldn't it be the other way around?It is rare I see bread flour here and it is pretty expensive, so for the wheat I use normal, but it has 11% protein, so not that low. My oven has a fan and a hole in the back where the steam could go out, but as I said, I had success before, so I am not sure that is the problem. I have the same results usually with or without the fan on. Any insights or help is appreciated. /nai: whole grains... So, whole grains behave differently than "standard" white flours. There are 3 parts to the wheat berry, bran, germ, and endosperm. White flours are made from just the starchy endosperm. Whole wheat flours include the bran and germ. The bran is the important thing here, it's doesn't really soften or break down in a dough, it retains sharp edges that essentially cut up the gluten strands in your dough like razor blades as you knead. If you have a fine mesh sifter you could extract a large portion of the bran from your raw flour before mixing and you'd likely get a better result as far as rising and openness of crumb go. Personally, if I'm sitting out the bran on a loaf with a high percentage of whole grains then I like to roll my balled dough in it to encrust the outside. That way you can retain the wonderful flavor and nutritional properties of the bran while also getting a "better" performing loaf. The second thing going on here is that rye flour just has a low gluten content. Without getting into the specifics of different types of proteins contributing different characteristics to the dough depending on the specific rye flour that you're buying (as it sounds like your selection is pretty limited), it's just not going to rise like wheat flour based doughs if it's 100% rye. If you use a combination of rye and wheat flours, sifting them to remove bran, you could get loaves that rise better. The real fun is in changing those elements around and developing a recipe for a bread that's just right for you.

/nhuman: My starter did not die Stuck in the back of the fridge for four months. Once I scraped off the gunge on top, the bottom portion was OK. Well, the 100% tub. I didn't like the look of the 70% and washed it all down the sink. Mixed new starters, starting with tablespoonfuls from the 100% tub. The rest of the 100% tub turned into sourdough pancake starter. I'll see if the starter developed new and interesting flavors in the morning. That stuff is hardier than many people think. /nai: 4 months isn't to long, I've 4 months isn't to long, I've brought back a starter that was a year and a half in the fridge. Took a week or 2, but it came back. A nice thing about a starter - if it ever did die, it's real easy to get another going. Which I was going to do, but wanted to see if I could revive a starter that neglected. Once a starter is going, they are tough.

/nhuman: Questions on Seeded Sourdough I'm going to try to make a seeded whole wheat sourdough and could use some help- 20% whole wheat flour, 80% Bread Flour (12%)- 20% Levain~70% hydrationI have the following seeds/grains handy:- cut Oats- rolled oats- white quinoa- pumpkin seeds- sunflower seeds- white sesame seeds1) i know i am suppose to cook the quinoa and the cut oats before hand - do i cook these 100% through or do i just par-cook it most of the way?2) for the other seeds, do i soak them or toast them?  i plan to add them in during bulk fermentation after 2nd stretch and fold3) i want to roll the shaped dough in some pumpkin seeds and/or rolled oats.  do i soak those to make sure they dont burn or will they be ok just dry?4) even though i have sesame seeds, i'm not sure the flavor profile fits with the rest. i think i'll leave them out5) any comment on cut vs rolled oats? i think they texture of the cut would be great but i'm not sure how much i need to cook those up front. i'm thinking the rolled oats will just melt into the dough or give a weird texture. but will look great on the crust6) do i need to adjust hydration for this type of loaf?Sorry it's a long list of questions. i did do some research online and not seeing much specifics or seeing different suggestions (like soaking vs roasting seeds). Any suggestions or comments on any of these greatly appreciated.Thanks,James /nai: James, you’ll be hard pressed James, you’ll be hard pressed to make a better seeded dough than Hamelman’s Five-Grain Levain. It is an absolute favorite by many bakers on this forum. You can use any variety of the seeds you have on hand. I have made many substitutions on occasion and they were all phenomenal. It is my favorite of all breads.http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/59038/community-bake-hamelmans-fivegrain-levain

/nhuman: Oven Spring Help Please! Hello Folks,New to the forum, read quite a bit on here over the last couple of years however, but never posted.  I've been muddling my way through the art of bread making with some success.  However, I have flat-ish loaves of sourdough about 50% to 60% of the time.  I take notes on each bake, but can't seem to get the consistency I'm looking to achieve.Any advice would be greatly appreciated!First, my equipment.  I have a 48" Blue Star Platinum gas range.  I bake inside a dutch oven for most of the cook (I will spell out the process below).  The process, based mostly on Flour Water Salt Yeast, has just been adjusted for my schedule slightly.Room temp is 68-70 deg averageNote:  I use 80 deg water to help slow down the starter and the bulk fermentation a little.  If I use 90 to 95 deg water, my starter is ready at 11am to noon.  However, I am working.  By using 80 deg water, it is double to triple by 4pm.604g Shepherds Grain AP Flour276g Spelt flour (Forest River)684g 80 deg tap water30g fine sea salt250g levain 6:00 am Feed Starter (currently use 80 deg well tap water)5:00 pm Autolyse5:30pm Mix (pincer method)6:00pm S&F #1 (stretch & fold)6:20pm S&F #26:40pm S&F #37:00pm S&F #46:00am Pre Shape6:20am Final Shape boules and put in floured bannetons with big plastic bags over themPreheat oven to 475 deg9:00am Flip onto parchment paper, score and bake for 30 min (I sometimes spritz a little water into the dutch oven)9:25am Drop temp to 450 deg9:30am Place directly on rack for 10 minutes for color (temp to 190 deg internal)9:40am Rest for a few hours or as long as possible :) I have had some successes, I suspect my dough is possibly over proofing during the bulk fermentation, but just not sure.  I've tried 10 hrs bulk fermentation, but still not consistent results. side view.jpg top view.jpg Crumb.jpg /nai: Shepherd's Grain AP flour is Shepherd's Grain AP flour is their low gluten flour. at about 10% protein. 80% hydration might be a bit much for it. How was the dough holding up after your last stretch and fold? window pane test ok? Schedule is definitely different than what I've seen.  Normally 3-6 hour Bulk fermentation which is after mixing in levain and before preshape. you would retard the shaped dough in their baskets overnight refrigerated and then bake in the morning.  Shaping after such a long rest would take all the spring out of it and also burst a lot of bubbles.that said... the crumb in the photos doesn't look bad at all. Looks like a light and even crumb.

/nhuman: Giant cave in my bread! So I've been making sourdough fairly regularly for a few months now and all my loaves have turned out OK. However the last 3 have had the same problem. I get huge cave like holes in the middle and then the rest is quite dense. I think it's to do with the bulk fermentation time which is honestly the part that I have the most trouble figuring out when it's done. I hope someone can help me. /nai: How long are you bulk How long are you bulk fermenting and what temperature are you doing it at?

/nhuman: Cold proofing in Crisper Drawer My home fridge is very cold (1-2 C, 38-39F) in the main section, and a little warmer in the first crisper drawer (3-5.5 C. 39-42F). I took temperatures using equal amounts of water stored in two glass jars. I tried cold proofing in the crisper drawer for the first time, where I took the bulk just shy of 40% original volume, shaped and then placed straight into the cold. After 7 hours in the crisper drawer, the dough rose a lot more than what I typically see, maybe about 70% of original volume? The final volume made it such that the dome peaked just over the top of a 10 inch oval banetton.While the rise may be directly attributable to the warmer temperatures, I wondered if there was a correlation between the speed of fermentation to the proximity to fruit like apples, peaches and bananas. Does ethylene gas speed up dough fermentation? I tried searching the forum for an answer but to no avail.The banetton was loosely covered in a linen cloth, did not store it in a bag. /nai: It's all about the temps. It's all about the temps.

/nhuman: Is there a difference in taste from different salts Hey fresh loaf Just wanted to find out if there will be a noticeable difference in taste from using different salts in sourdough. Eg. Flake salt, table salt, sea salt, kosher salt.I was curious as a local supermarket was selling artisanal salt and thought it could be nice to try in sourdough /nai: I would say no. Unless the I would say no. Unless the salt is flavored (smoke, herbs), but even then I question it.But it might have a very small different effect on the dough since different salts have different amounts of minerals, crystal size etc. So I would just get a good, proper salt (additive-free, mineral-rich), preferably locally sourced, nothing more.

/nhuman: Over active starter? I am a beginner to sour doughs and wanted to verify if my starter was off to a good start.  I began with 1 cup of whole wheat flour and a bit more than a cup of water (I actually used water from my tea kettle that had cooled to room temperature).  After 12 hours I saw bubbles forming and by 27 hours it had more than doubled but didn't seem to have peaked.  I went to sleep and checked it again in the morning and it finally looked like it had stopped growing after about 38 hours.  Is that too long? Is it normal for it to be so active?  Was it my flour? The temperature in the room (about 75).  I then took 1/2 cup of the starter (named Fred) and added 1 cup of bread flour and a bit more than 1 cup of filtered water to it and put it in a clean jar with a loose fitting lid.  It doubled in 4 hours. Again, I keep reading about starters that are so slow to rise and am wondering if this is ok? Should I be feeding it with a 1:1:1 ratio, instead of a 1:2:2 ratio?Thanks for your help! /nai: Overactive Starter Hi. I'm a newbie with sourdough too, so take this with that in mind. I have read that the first days your starter rises, it is from a bacterial bloom, not from the good yeast that will come later on. The starter may smell off in a couple days, like old cheese or a teen boy's tennis shoes. That will pass. I presume that is bacteria die-off, but I could be wrong. It is good that you are using whole wheat for your starter, as it has a lot of the right kinds of bacteria/yeast that you want, and it will mature and rise better than with white flour. Now, there are a couple pages written about using pineapple juice instead of water, that makes the starter acid and provides a perfect environment for the best yeast to grow. This will help your starter give your bread the depth of flavor and character that San Francisco sour dough is known for. Please read the two part article on pineapple juice for sour dough. I don't have the name to give you but everyone on here knows about it, I think. Someone will direct you to it, or just google it. It is very valuable info there.

/nhuman: Favourite part of the baking day My favourite part of the baking day is when the loaves are cool enough to slice. My better half is keen to attack the end crusts, but I have to stop her from taking from the loaf that is to go to family. The serrated blade deli slicer makes the task easy and fast. These are 10% stone-ground red wheat sourdough; our everyday bread.Cheers,Gavin. /nai: Breads and machine look Breads and machine look awesome Gavin, an eye candy for sure. I have been making sandwich loafs quite often nowadays and would definitely be in need of a machine like this, as my hand cutting is terrible to divide the slides evenly. Thanks!

/nhuman: Sourdough not sour! Hi everyone, I've made probably ten loaves over the past few months and none of them have been sour at all! I typically follow Claire Saffitz's recipe from the NYT. It's 500g bread flour, 375g water, 100g starter and 10 g salt. The levain sits overnight, I autolyse for an hour, fold for ten minutes until the dough passes the window pane test, then do a series of folds every 60 minutes until it's ready to shape. Typically between 3 and 5 hours. I shape the dough and let it sit in the proofing basket for 1-2 hours until it passes the poke test then let it sit in the fridge overnight, typically for about 16 hours.I worry about leaving it in the fridge so long it over proofs, but I've yet to get any serious sour flavor at all. My bread has always risen well with good crumb and oven spring, it's just not sour!I have a feeling the lack of sour flavor has something to do with my starter perhaps? I followed king arthur flour's starter recipe of 113 g flour/water and when refreshing a 1:1:1 ratio. Would decreasing the amount of starter in each refresh make a more sour sourdough? My starter smells pretty fruity and boozy on a typical day. Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated. I love a really tangy dough and this has just been a complete mystery for me! Thanks so much! /nai: Sourdough is a leavening methode not a flavor. The are different ways to make ist more or less sour. See https://truesourdough.com/18-ways-to-make-sourdough-bread-more-or-less-sour

/nhuman: Care to critique my Cranberry Walnut Rye Sourdough? IMG_3798.jpg image4.jpeg I'm fairly new at making sourdough bread.  my first attempt at a cranberry walnut version of this.  Look for some input/feedback on the outcome.  overall I am quite happy with it but have some questionsThis is 70% hydration.  AP flour plus 10% medium grind Rye, 20% rye levain. 3 stretch and folds with very wet dough. folded in cranberries and walnuts (both presoaked) after 2nd fold.preshape and final shaped then put in fridge for 18 hours. scored and into DO at 475F oven. (the little runt in the back didnt have a DO over it, i could only fit two in the oven)  25 minutes covered, 30 minutes uncovered at 450F.i cut open the little one about an hour after cooling, that's the one shown in the photo.  consistent crumb. very moist still,  crust is crackly.my concerns/questions- the crumb seems too moist.  did i cut it too soon?  should i have bake it longer? the crust could get a bit darker, but i like the color - i feel like the crumb could be more open.  is it due to my using AP instead of a stronger flour? or is it the rye flour? would i get more rise with whole wheat instead?i just bought 50lbs of bread flour and 25lbs of whole rye after this started, so im looking forward to making lots of sourdough.  any comments, critiques, and other sourdough recipes appreciated.-James /nai: image0.jpeg image0.jpeg very wet sticky dough. this was preshape. never got a good taunt skin on it. tried not to do too much dusting. i used rice flour. but finally gave in. as the scraper was sticking constantly

/nhuman: Tartine Troubles I have been on a Tartine learning curve for a few weeks. I really thought I had it nailed this time. I started w strong starter (doubled in under 4 hrs) and a good levain from it. My dough temp going into bulk was in the 78-82 sweet spot and remained there the whole 3 hrs. Dough rose 30% and domed. Four S and Fs at 30 min spacing. After 3 hrs, pre-shaped, dough was pretty slack. 30 mins later final shape and into bannetons and into fridge for proofing. A boule and batard. Boule had nice oven spring in dutch oven and nice ear. But when cooled and cut in half very disappointed to find a crumb that, though light and springy, had very few larger holes. Lots of smallish holes. /nai: Looks like the bread is Looks like the bread is proofed enough. I expect it's either down to hydration levels or more likely during the shaping process. Shaping can have a massive effect on the hole structure. Watch this to see what I mean https://youtu.be/ctCN7E_kwnE

/nhuman: Underproofed or Overproofed? Newbie sourdough-er here.Without giving too much info, does this baked loaf look underproofed or overproofed to you?Thanks for your help! /nai: With only this picture I With only this picture I would say under proofed.

/nhuman: How do I stiffen up a floppy dough? I halved this recipe because I only want one loaf at a time, so, halved, it calls for262 g water10 g salt100 g starter350 g AP or bread flourI'm supposed to stretch and fold 4 times, with wet hands, then several periods of resting, refrigeration over night, shaping with very small amount of flour. The dough, even after 3-4 final hours of refrigeration is too soft to hold form at all. Even the slashes I make with scissors just disappear in the oven. Oven spring not good, either. I am using a loaf pan because we wanted a loaf , not a round. I am putting it in a 500 f oven, with a pan of water in the oven. The bottom of the crust on my last loaf didn't get brown at all. (Maybe the pan of water protected it?)Can I cut down on the water in the recipe? Or work the dough more and with flour not water? Any suggestions would be welcome. Or a different recipe maybe? /nai: Hello! I’d guess you’re new Hello! I’d guess you’re new to the world of sourdough; so am I! I’ve started making sourdough loaves for a couple of months now, and I’ve had my fair share of slack doughs.My tips are:1) lower the hydration: use less water. If you divide 262g water by the 350g flour: you get a 75% hydration level. You could lower it to 70%, that would make the dough more manageable or even 65%, that would be 245g water and 228g water respectively. 2) not all flours are created equally. AP flour, by nature, has a lower protein content, so usually it can’t handle a lot of water. Also, you’d need to build up the strength of your dough in the beginning with slap and folds or just fold the dough onto itself. Hope this helps!

/nhuman: Gummy texture Hi there. Looking for some advice with this. Getting nice tasting bread but a bit gummy in texture, as if undercooked. Following a recipe which should work. Any help appreciated  1A401CC3-4DF7-4853-9C95-98873061D9D2.jpeg /nai: How long did you let it cool How long did you let it cool before you cut it?

/nhuman: Baking after refrigeration help! I made a starter about a month ago, got it going, made some yummy bread and then put my starter in the fridge. I fed my starter weekly for a couple weeks and then decided I wanted to make bread again... first feeding went good, it doubled in size but didn’t float. So I fed it again, and again and again and again and still couldn’t get it to float (kept at 70 degrees) and then it seemed to sort of deteriorate where it wasn’t even rising that much and was more gooey.so I got frustrated and tossed it out (I still have starter in the fridge). I want to try again but need advice? How many times do you typically feed the starter from the fridge before it is ready again? Because I assumed it would be easier after the starter was established but a week and a bag of flour later I got nothing. Thanks in advance! /nai: what is your feeding ratio what is your feeding ratio and what are you feeding with?  AP, bread flour, whole grain?  i've found that feeding with rye or ww wakes up the starter better than just AP.  and rather than a 1-1-1, i do a 2-5-5... e.g. 20g starter, 50g rye, 50g water. also, how is the smell/taste of the starter? interesting that it doubled but didnt float...

/nhuman: All purpose flour boule So I’ve just finished my stock of bread flour???, and I can’t find any at my local supermarkets, so I tried making an all purpose sourdough with some spelt (~ 15%). What do you guys think?  Taste wise: it was not that sour , but I think that’s because it was a one day bakes. Next time, I’ll retard it over night in the fridge and I might experiment with using a stiff starter. Do you think that would bump up the flavor? 7A43330E-D6F6-4C57-A10C-1874A63D0EE2.jpeg A021B060-64BD-4555-BA7B-88145BCD1D0B.jpeg /nai: Success!  It will eat just Success!  It will eat just fine.

/nhuman: starter problem(i think?) hey ppl, first: i want to say that this forum have been helping my baking life so much and i love u all.let me get to the topic. i've been baking 3 or 4 loafs of bread everyday and i sell them in a small city named Cabo Frio in the state of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.im having some problems with my starter, after one or two week of heavy daily baking. occurs that my starter somehow get weak (ive been feeding 1:2:2 with 20% ww and 80% bread flour) and i have to pray or just put some rye flour to fortify my baby.first question, is it normal that my starter gets weak or im doing something terrible to him? second question, i've been feeding for my loaves of the day and, next day in the morning, feeding for the loaves of day. is that disrupting my starter, i have to feed two times after bake for ever and ever?third question: i'll upload some photos of my starter so someone can give me a hand, i bake sometimes good loafs but my starter always produce tiny tiny tiny small bubbles (he nearly triple his size, but, where's the big holes of the photos of starters that i see?)help me with my tiny tiny holes and weak starter :'(in the photo, its a 20% organic rye 80% bread flour in a 1:1:1 ratio (peaked after 4 hours in 26.6C) 20200614_195355.jpg 20200614_195314.jpg 20200614_195344.jpg 20200614_195257.jpg /nai: Weak? Can you tell us a little more about the starter being weak? Is it not raising your bread? Or something else is causing concern?I wouldn't worry about the tiny bubbles. Bubble size has more to do with the hydration and flour type than the strength of the starter.Your starter peaked at 4 hours, more than doubled, and seems to be making good bread. So what exactly is it that you're worried about?Also, you said that you feed it 1:2:2 but your photo is of the starter after a 1:1:1 feed. Why the change?Finally, you said"i've been feeding for my loaves of the day and, next day in the morning, feeding for the loaves of day. is that disrupting my starter"I'm sorry but I did not really understand this. Can you explain what you're doing in more detail? Are you feeding the whole mother starter each morning, letting it peak, and then taking a portion of it out to leaven your bread? If so, is that the only time you feed it (once a day)? What temperature do you keep it at?

/nhuman: Oven Temperature for Baking Is the convection setting good at 450F for making sourdough? Or is it better to keep it on bake at 500F? /nai: Oven Spring? Also, what are some ways to get a good oven spring? My dough rises alright in the oven but I don't see any gluten strands where I've scored the bread. Should I let it steam for longer? It also takes way longer than 20-25 minutes to develop any browning.

/nhuman: Does sourdough bread need diastatic barley malt? I make a sourdough rye that's about 80% to 90% rye flour. I add gluten which helps lighten it up, and just bought some diastatic barley malt because I know that the whole rye flour I use doesn't have it.The purpose of the diastatic barley malt is to break down the starch in the flour to help the yeast feed. It's automatically added to all purpose flour and bread flour in the U.S. However, the lactic bacteria in sourdough also breaks down the starch into sugars for the yeast.So, do you need to add diastatic barley malt to sourdough bread? Thanks. /nai: No No you do not.

/nhuman: Poor rise after longer bulk fermentation Hi All -I have been trying to increase the sourness of my bread, and I have read that longer bulk fermentation is helpful in this regard.  As a related note, my starter is not particularly sour, so I thought that trying a 48-hour bulk fermentation might be a good way to increase the bread's flavor.However, I am getting very poor (or perhaps I should say none at all) rise now.  This loaf is just plain flat.  Do you have any suggestions/insights?  Did my yeast get tired during the bulk fermentation?  Is 48 hours too long?I am new to the sourdough world so any tips would be appreciated!  Thanks! /nai: That is a LONG bulk ferment There are certainly more experts here on this site, but a 48-hour bulk ferment sounds like a VERY long time to me (without more specific details regarding your method/recipe).  I would go with a much shorter bulk (at least half of what you are currently doing) but add a longish cold retard in the fridge after bulk, if you are wanting a more sour note to your bread.  By bulking for so long at (I'm assuming) room temp, you are depleting all the energy in your dough, so you won't get much or any rise or oven spring when you go to bake.  Also, the dough should tell you when the bulk ferment is done (usually closer to 5-8 hours at room temp, depending on dough components and room temp) by being bubbly, light and jiggly, slightly domed on the top surface and with medium to large bubbles spread throughout (why it is always good to bulk in a glass bowl, so you can see).  You don't want to push much pass this point.  Hope this helps!

/nhuman: Underproofed or underbaked? A 70% sourdough with toasted sunflower seeds. The crumb is glossy but not sticky or wet. Baked in a DO for 20 minutes at 525 F- lid on , and 17 m at 450 F  - lid off. The crumb seems a bit dense in the very center? Temp at center was 206 F when I pulled it. Left it in the oven for about 20 minutes with the door open. I didn't cut it for more than  3 hours and it seemed like it was at room temperature.The taste and texture is very good, I'm almost happy D72_2417.JPG . /nai: Be Happy Life is too short to worry about it, if it looks good (which it does) and it tastes good (which you claim) just enjoy it.  Crumb looks fine to me.

/nhuman: Traveling with your starter. Hello everyone, looking for some advices in regards to traveling with your starter. With borders finally opening in EU I decided I will spend the 1 month in my home country. Because I have a dog, I will travel by car and will have to drive over 3000km, that would be 3 days 2 nights. Not only I don't want to risk killing my starter by leaving in the fridge so long without being attended, I also want to keep baking bread back home, can't wait to try my moms wood oven.So what recommendations or tips would you give me? /nai: Cooler Couldn’t you feed it before you leave and keep it in a cooler along with some road trip snacks?

/nhuman: Sourdough starter doubling in size on first day I’m brand new to making sourdough, but have wanted to try it for a long time.  Yesterday I started my first sourdough starter using 100g of Bobs Red Mill organic dark rye flour and 150g of water.It’s fairly cold in my house (around 65 F) so I put the starter in my off oven with the light on.  This morning I checked the starter and it’s doubled in size with lots of bubbles.My understanding was that it would be at least a few days before seeing any activity.  Is this normal?  Thanks! /nai: Since you have a 150% Since you have a 150% hydration and a fairly warm spot in your oven, it's not surprising to see activity that fast.Higher hydration means higher water activity, which means faster fermentation. Higher temperatures speeds it up as well. Also rye flour is known for boosting starters due to its high mineral/ash content.I guess you also somehow managed to capture a lot of yeasts and lactic acid bacteria, since usually it takes a few feedings to get that (= a lot of bubbles)...unless you stir it frequently.

/nhuman: Flour Vs water shaping high hydration dough So I've been making some 80+% mainly white flour loaves recently. Ive found on my searches that's it's suggested usually to do a wet pre shape and floured  shape. With higher hydration doughs I find it much easier to use water for both, is there any reason why it's better to use flour for shaping the final?Thanks /nai: Only thing I can think of is Only thing I can think of is - if the surface of the dough is very wet before it goes in a banneton it could increase the chance of sticking to it, unless a lot of flour is used and that can create other issues. What works for you is what you should do.

/nhuman: Need Advice for failed sourdough I have attempted to make sourdough a couple times. My starter is around a 90% hydration level, and I am using https://amyinthekitchen.com/beginners-sourdough-bread/ as my recipe. All of my loaves seem to have the same problem: blonde crust, little rising and dense crumb. I bake in a Dutch oven, as the recipe suggests, and I proof for about 5 hours total before proofing in the fridge overnight. My starter is pretty strong and doubles in size consistently. Any help would be appreciated! The pictures are from two different days. The photo that is more risen and more puffed up was baked in a Dutch oven without the lid as an experiment. All of the loaves look like the crumb photo. /nai: They are underproofed. How They are underproofed. How much starter are you using?Can you please give us your recipe and process so we can assess better?

/nhuman: Sourdough: Hard crust, sticky tacky insides after baked! Hi community, i am new to this forum but have been reading a lot of advice from fellow bakers here while my sister and I are trying out our very first sourdough.. We have gotten to "Charlie" (we name our sourdoughs alphabetically hoping to get it right before the alphabet "Z"), but our sourdoughs were never right. Our problem was with the tacky, rubbery, sticky insides of the baked bread (I could press a piece of the inside  between my fingers and it would stick on without falling) no matter how long we bake it for (Charlie was baked for 40 mins in the cast iron and 20 mins on a rack, and the picture attached shows the insides). We would like to share the recipe we used here, hopefully to get some help from the experienced bakers around! Thank you in advance!150g bread flour, 150g all-purpose, 90g whole wheat flour with 350g water (slightly warmer than room temperature by the touch), with 90g of starter and 9g of salt. Steps:Autolyse for an hour before adding the starter (rest 30m) and salt (rest 15m) all by hand using the folding and pinching method. We performed up to 6 sets of stretch and fold during the first two hours of fermentation before leaving it to bulk ferment for the next two hours. Even though our dough doubled in size at the end of four hours with visible strength around the rounded sides, there weren't bubbles on the surface of the dough. Nonetheless we ended the bulk fermentation when the dough doubled in size (at the end of two hours after the last stretch and fold), and performed the pre shaping and final shaping. Throughout the shaping, the dough felt aerated and light and bouncy and it was easy to handle after dipping our hands in water. We retarded the dough for 16 hours. We preheated the oven (which was constrained at 480F) for an hour, and baked Charlie for 40 mins (tried 25 mins for Betty) in the cast iron, and 20 mins on the rack. The exterior was perfectly brown. Sliced through the bread in an hour and it left sticky residue on the knife and the insides was tacky. In our previous attempts, we thought it was undercooked, hence the longer baking time for Charlie  this time round. But we are utterly puzzled by the outcome again. Would really appreciate some pointers, thank you in advance!! /nai: First,  good effort, but First,  good effort, but where did you get the recipe from?  Generally, a good hydration starting point is 75% or so when working with bread flour, 80% or so with whole wheat.  I ran your numbers, and unless my math is wrong, your are above 90% hydration, which is extremely high.  To calculate, add up all the flour, including the flour in the starter, then add up all the water, including the water in the starter, and divide the water by the starter.  So I added 390 flour, plus 45 more from the starter ( assuming your starter is 100% hydration) to get 435 flour.  Water was 350 plus 45 in the starter for 395.Also,  if you find the outside is brown and the inside is moist, that normally indicates you should lower the baking temp.  Many start at 400 F  and drop to 375 F at some point during the baking.

/nhuman: Help me troubleshoot failed loaf My wife baked a loaf using the following recipe:https://livesimply.me/homemade-sourdough-bread-spelt-wheat/And the poor thing came out looking like this:As far as I know the recipe was followed to a T except for these changes:In Step One, we extended the 6 hour levain to 12 hours (overnight) and compensated for the change by halving the sourdough starter from 50g to 25g.In Step Two part 4, in spite of my protests, my wife used the kitchenaid with the dough hook to work in an additional 50 grams of flour. I was worried the mixer would overwork the dough.I was occasionally brought into the bake to give my opinion on things and I had a strong suspicion something was wrong at Step 2 part 5, when the dough is supposed to be preshaped prior to loading into the banneton. The dough just felt like it had no body. The dough didn't want to hold its shape, like there was no gluten development. I have had this happen in dough in the past, and I guess I would really like to know what causes it. My guesses are that this is caused by either (1) overworking the dough or (2) chemical breakdown of the dough due.Thoughts? /nai: Yes. Yes, either and both of those things would have messed up the loaf.  "If you change the inputs or procedures, you change the output."--1. First deviation from recipe: your logic was based on two incorrect assumptions:  a) the behavior of yeast.  I would go into it, but there is math and science involved. (Lemme know if you're a math guy, or science/engineering geek.)b) the behavior of spelt.Net/fix: just follow the recipe.2. Second deviation:  You were right.  Shouldn't use mixer after a 12 hour bulk ferment, _especially_ with spelt.Net/fix:  just reduce the water up front so you don't have to add flour.  Hydration adjustment is common to all recipes because of variations in local ingredients, pre-existing moisture in the flour, and ambient humidity.--BTW, Are you sure you used white spelt and not whole spelt?  That loaf looks kind of dark. It still looks good enough, so congrats!

/nhuman: Need some troubleshooting advice So I've been noticing that the area under where I'm scoring my loaves has a much tighter crumb than the rest. I recently started baking in a deck oven. Here's my settings for my oven. It's a Revent 649. Preheated to 450°, all knobs turned to 4(highest setting.) Loaves in and steam for 10 seconds every few minutes for 10 minutes. Then the top heat knobs turned down to 3. 10 more minutes then I vent the steam. And continue for another 10-15 minutes until I like the colour. Any ideas? This is my first time for almost 7 years using a deck oven. /nai: Likely not related to scoring Likely not related to scoring or the oven, but rather forming and proofing. What is the recipe/formula, and the method (gluten development, bulk ferment, shape, proof)?